[fwxc]

---

[MrAce]

Idk others but to me partner made a mistake either by not opening or with his second double. So this auction should not exist in an expert partnership imo.

Despite the fact that we have 4=4 majors and a fit, probably a double fit, defensive values of my hand are overwhelming. AK trumps, Kx ♣ and a ruffing value...I will bite and pass.

[wank]

partner's obviously got a diamond void. it seems a little odd to pass them out in their 10 card fit at the 3 level, but like mr ace i suspect it's going off. unlike him though, i'd seek the relative safety of 3S (if partner was 4504, he might well bid 3h).

[dboxley]

Why didn't I make a responsive double of 3♦? At IMPs I wouldn't now pass for a 1 trick set when partner can be 54 in the majors. Even at MPs it would be very risky. Partner made a takeout double and doesn't expect to ever be passed on this auction. 3H I will now let mikeh drone on about whatever.

[mcphee]

East has a clear dble of the 3D raise, passing is silly. I would never pass out 3D dbled. This looks like 4D to me now letting partner select a major game. East needs to get in sooner and now can never catch up.

[MrAce]

mcphee, on 2015-July-23, 03:19, said:

East has a clear dble of the 3D raise, passing is silly. I would never pass out 3D dbled. This looks like 4D to me now letting partner select a major game. East needs to get in sooner and now can never catch up.

God, please help these people!

PD coming from pass, you did not like your hand and passed in 3rd, now having learnt that you hold AKx vs void, and such values on you long suit, why don't you ask aces and bid slam while you are at it?

[dboxley]

MrAce, on 2015-July-23, 05:03, said:

God, please help these people!

PD coming from pass, you did not like your hand and passed in 3rd, now having learnt that you hold AKx vs void, and such values on you long suit, why don't you ask aces and bid slam while you are at it?

Are you saying that you agree with the pass over 3D? And now you want to punish your partner for the second double? Do you really think the double is based on defensive cards? Your partner is contracting for the 3 level as a passed hand opposite a passed hand. I would expect some distribution and playing strength and very little defense. Passing is a good way to ensure that he/she never plays with you again. (and that would probably be a very good decision on his/her part)

[mikeh]

dboxley, on 2015-July-23, 01:07, said:

I will now let mikeh drone on about whatever.

Thanks! I appreciate the permission.

[MrAce]

dboxley, on 2015-July-23, 05:22, said:

Are you saying that you agree with the pass over 3D?

No, I do not even agree with our previous pass in 3rd seat. I am merely trying to figure out what to do now with too many idiot per square foot (regarding the players at the table who created this mess) , and trying to solve their mess in expert forum. I do not even know whether my DBL of 3♦ should be responsive here, but whatever. I am not saying that we should pass 3♦. I am saying that I would pass and my experience tells me it will work especially if it is MP. I probably would not take this risk at IMPs.

But I think it is nuts to bid 4♦ and force pd to bid game now.

dboxley, on 2015-July-23, 05:22, said:

And now you want to punish your partner for the second double? Do you really think the double is based on defensive cards? Your partner is contracting for the 3 level as a passed hand opposite a passed hand. I would expect some distribution and playing strength and very little defense.

Oh dear...Hell yea I expect him to have some defensive cards, since 3♦ double being converted is always an option. He has a shape? No *****! He better have unless he enjoys being chained and dragged on the back of an 18 wheeler (joke ) I expect him to have 4405 shape with 8-10 hcp, and usually 2 Aces for this bid or A+KQ. If I am wrong and he has qwacks instead, then god help me in 3♦ and god help those who bid game as well. If you think passing is punishing pd, then forcing to game is slaughtering pd! If you are not forcing to game and just bidding 3M now, you and I get along just fine. Since this is what I'd probably do too at imps.

dboxley, on 2015-July-23, 05:22, said:

Passing is a good way to ensure that he/she never plays with you again. (and that would probably be a very good decision on his/her part)

This has never been my concern when I make a call. I feel bad for you, if this is an important factor in your decisions. It must be an awful feeling to make your decisions to ensure you have a pd next board or next event.

[Phil]

Would have x'd 3♦.

I'd never sit for this with ♦AKx and both majors. Passing is terrible. One of the early bromides taught to me by CLarsen was that AKx is a terrible holding to convert since the opponents have compensating shape missing these trump honors.

[wank]

Phil, on 2015-July-23, 08:51, said:

One of the early bromides taught to me by CLarsen was that AKx is a terrible holding to convert since the opponents have compensating shape missing these trump honors.

he probably also said that when opps pre-empt to the 3 level in their 10 card fit it normally means they're pretty balanced.

[SteveMoe]

What Timo said. ♦AKx means I don't have HCP in the other 3 suits we need to make 9 tricks. Taking 5 tricks on defense rates to be easier than 9 on offense. After partner takes two major aces, a ♣ switch looms.

[Cyberyeti]

With us, I could only imagine partner has a singleton diamond and 3xAxxx or 2xAxxx and 1x QJxx given what we open and it would only occur if partner held that hand not me, so it would be an easy pass and a penalty against nothing. There is no chance of a diamond void, a hand nearly good enough to double again would have opened.

[fwxc]

see layout downstairs.

I think all exp must have openned for W's hand as 1♥ then problems solved on playing 3♥ and down most of cases. sure W should've opened. but he didn't that's why he dbled twice later.

now because of W didn't open for whatever reason, now all pressure goes to E, as some said, E got 2 tricks on trump and a possible wining on ♣, what will be the judgement to pass or bid majors?

the possibilities of making 3 level Major contract and defense opp's 3♦ dbl, whichi is higher? E passed, would he hold's 3 winning tricks? both Major 44 fit is a gauranteed.

the risk of passing or bid which hurts more? if you were E what would you do to save the hand?

[PhilKing]

There's been a lot of wind passed on this problem considering that we never found out whether it is match points (easy pass) or imps (where partner would never do this).

[fwxc]

---

here is the distribution. and the bidding was E to bid.

[fwxc]

PhilKing, on 2015-July-24, 05:00, said:

There's been a lot of wind passed on this problem considering that we never found out whether it is match points (easy pass) or imps (where partner would never do this).

let's say Match Points. but how could p have 3 defensive tricks? the possibility of defeat 3♦ is almost none. making 3 level Major may not be sure but the loss is lighter compare to 3♦ dbl.

[fwxc]

MrAce, on 2015-July-22, 22:57, said:

Idk others but to me partner made a mistake either by not opening or with his second double. So this auction should not exist in an expert partnership imo.

Despite the fact that we have 4=4 majors and a fit, probably a double fit, defensive values of my hand are overwhelming. AK trumps, Kx ♣ and a ruffing value...I will bite and pass.

understand your point, but then how could p not opened but with 3 defensive tricks? how to balance the risks of defense 3♦ dbl or to play a doubled 3level M. I think this is the key to evaluate.

[Phil]

So partner passed an opening bid in first seat. We might have opened ourselves. Many tables will press on to the doomed game our way.

-100 in 3♥ doesn't seem too bad. South hasn't x'd yet and probably won't. Very possible that North will compete over 3♥.

Too tired at 4 AM to play out 3♦x'd but on a spade lead isn't declarer poisoned if he takes a quick pitch?

[PhilKing]

fwxc, on 2015-July-24, 05:08, said:

let's say Match Points. but how could p have 3 defensive tricks? the possibility of defeat 3♦ is almost none. making 3 level Major may not be sure but the loss is lighter compare to 3♦ dbl.

One high card (the club ace) is enough to set them with a ruff if their clubs are 4-3, and we are beating them on raw power when partner has two aces or a working king.

The distribution on this hand is an outlier. My guess is that they will go off about 2/3 of the time.

On partners's hand, if I had accidentally passed in first seat, I would double 1♦ and then bid 3♥, and I am not just resulting.