[Chamaco]

bafoil, on Mar 22 2005, 10:30 AM, said:

WHAT IS OBAR ?

OBAR = Opps Bid And Raise.

It is a popular thinking that when opps bid and raise (weak raise), one should bid in the direct seat as if he were in the balancing seat (light), if he has the right shape.

The reason for this thinking is that when YOU have the right shape (shortness in opps suit) in the direct seat, if you pass, partner will probably have xxx or so in their suit, so he will hardly balance.
And, most of the time, at least at the 2 level, it is losing bridge to sell out.

Therefore, you must keep the pressure off balancer and bid with the right shape, even if you are a bit light in hcp.

[Fluffy]

Free, on Mar 22 2005, 09:49 AM, said:

Imo there are only 3 sensible bids

That is 2 more that 50% of the problems I've seen here latelly .

I Am also a 2♠ bidder close to double.

[Brandal]

Walddk, on Mar 21 2005, 06:44 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

West opens 1♥, pass from partner, 2♥ by East, and ??

To bid or not to bid. Is it time to get in, or is it better to stay out of this? If you bid, what is your choice?

Roland

2S

[sceptic]

I think you should pass and wait for a balance, you have no guarentees they dont have a good opener and a spade lead may prove a bad choice, if opps have a fit and they pass 2 hearts out your p has to do as much as he can not to let them play in a 2 level fit, if he cant balance there, I thinkk 2 spades x down scores worse than 2 hearts making

[joker_gib]

sceptic, on Mar 22 2005, 08:21 AM, said:

I think you should pass and wait for a balance, you have no guarentees they dont have a good opener and a spade lead may prove a bad choice, if opps have a fit and they pass 2 hearts out your p has to do as much as he can not to let them play in a 2 level fit, if he cant balance there, I thinkk 2 spades x down scores worse than 2 hearts making

Sceptic,

Partner will probably not have the right hand to balance (long ♥, only 3♠,...)so that if you don't do anything now the final contract will be 2♥

Check what Mauro (Chamaco) said about OBAR !


Alain

[Walddk]

This is not an easy one, and anything could be right. My personal view is that it's dangerous to come in with a 5332 shape vulnerable unless your 5-card suit is very good.

If I bid, I think double is most flexible, because that will also keep the minors in play, and partner can easily have 5 in one of them and a doubleton spade.

Besides, spades are not completely lost just yet even if you double. There are some hands where partner will choose to bid 2♠ with only 3 cards. 3343 or 3334, and even 3244 when weak. But by doubling we also get to 3 of a minor when that is right (2353 and 2335).

Overcalling 2♠ is too unilateral to my liking.

Roland

[whereagles]

2S too unilateral..? It may look so, but it is not that unilateral if pard is alert. He should reason the obar 2S is often made on the principle "they have fit, we have fit", so with 1-3-54 or 2-3-53, he could perhaps try 3m.

It can go wrong, of course, but the point is 2S needn't always show 6 cards or goodish 5 and you have to cater for it being made on a broken 5 card. Especially in fit auctions.

[inquiry]

Walddk, on Mar 22 2005, 12:23 PM, said:

(snip) My personal view is that it's dangerous to come in with a 5332 shape vulnerable unless your 5-card suit is very good.

If I bid, (snip)

For once, Roland and I are on the same page (and quite a different one from nearly everyone else). Like Roland, I think IF I bid here, I will double... but at imps, like Roland, I think 2♠ shows better spades... in fact, in my reply, I said...

Quote

My spade suit isn't quite suitable for 2♠.

Justin (another gold star beside Roland replying here) suggest that passing gives away 6 imps. I assume his assumption here is you make 2♠ (+110) and they make 2♥ (-110), for a net swing of six imps (six imps is 220 to 260). But there are many other options. For one thing, both 2♥ and 2♠ are down one, so you throw away five imps (-100 instead of +100), or one makes and the other is down, so as long as their is no double, it is a wash (-100 versus -110, or +100 versus +110). But there are other options, as well. These others ones obviously weigh heavily on Roland's mind when he said the "[b](his) personal view is that it's dangerous to come in with a 5332 shape vulnerable unless your 5-card suit is very good."

This worries me too. It is so much easier for the opponents to double you when they have two or three trump tricks and their partner has limited their hand. Thus bidding here runs two significant risk. The first is West is on big hand and finds a penalty double when they can't make much more than +140. Now -500 or -800 is possible, and minus more occassionally. Second, if you get away with the 2♠, your partner might easily raise you expecting more DESPITE OBAR rules, given the type of game (imps) and the vulnerabilty. It would be a darn shame to bid 2♠, have West pass and have partner raise to 3♠ on some unattractive hand like Jxxx xx KTx QTxx (everything appears to be working) only to find we lose 2♠, 2♥, 2♣, and 1♦ doubled (when we misguess ♦Q and WEST has AQ of spades) when we can win 3D and one club against what ever they bid (no diamond guess when you see dummy). Or give partner the spade QJ, and we still lose 2C, 2H, and 1S doubled and have to find diamond Queen to avoid down two.

Bid if you have too... but at some point, you need to start considering risk versus reward.... that is take a look at the vulnerabilty and the type game. At MP, you should bid everytime, because based upon frequency, 2♠ will be the winner in the long run (more good results after bidding 2♠ than after passing). But based upon anticipated results, bidding here at imps, will lead to enough larger negative swings to make it unwise in my opinion (this hand is not worth the 14 hcp it seems to have 5-2-3-3 is not great distribution, 2 hearts is not a great holding, the king of hearts should be discounted).

There is a third consideration here. Your opponents are vulnerable. IF WEST has any extra, he will make a game try. If he passes, your partner will know you ahve a nice hand. Under these conditions, your partner will strain to reopen despite your pass if it goes 2H-P-P-P....

Ben

[Brandal]

inquiry, on Mar 22 2005, 12:40 PM, said:

Walddk, on Mar 22 2005, 12:23 PM, said:

(snip) My personal view is that it's dangerous to come in with a 5332 shape vulnerable unless your 5-card suit is very good.

If I bid, (snip)

For once, Roland and I are on the same page (and quite a different one from nearly everyone else). Like Roland, I think IF I bid here, I will double... but at imps, like Roland, I think 2♠ shows better spades... in fact, in my reply, I said...

Quote

My spade suit isn't quite suitable for 2â™ .

Justin (another gold star beside Roland replying here) suggest that passing gives away 6 imps. I assume his assumption here is you make 2♠ (+110) and they make 2♥ (-110), for a net swing of six imps (six imps is 220 to 260). But there are many other options. For one thing, both 2♥ and 2♠ are down one, so you throw away five imps (-100 instead of +100), or one makes and the other is down, so as long as their is no double, it is a wash (-100 versus -110, or +100 versus +110). But there are other options, as well. These others ones obviously weigh heavily on Roland's mind when he said the "[b](his) personal view is that it's dangerous to come in with a 5332 shape vulnerable unless your 5-card suit is very good."

This worries me too. It is so much easier for the opponents to double you when they have two or three trump tricks and their partner has limited their hand. Thus bidding here runs two significant risk. The first is West is on big hand and finds a penalty double when they can't make much more than +140. Now -500 or -800 is possible, and minus more occassionally. Second, if you get away with the 2♠, your partner might easily raise you expecting more DESPITE OBAR rules, given the type of game (imps) and the vulnerabilty. It would be a darn shame to bid 2♠, have West pass and have partner raise to 3♠ on some unattractive hand like Jxxx xx KTx QTxx (everything appears to be working) only to find we lose 2♠, 2♥, 2♣, and 1♦ doubled (when we misguess ♦Q and WEST has AQ of spades) when we can win 3D and one club against what ever they bid (no diamond guess when you see dummy). Or give partner the spade QJ, and we still lose 2C, 2H, and 1S doubled and have to find diamond Queen to avoid down two.

Bid if you have too... but at some point, you need to start considering risk versus reward.... that is take a look at the vulnerabilty and the type game. At MP, you should bid everytime, because based upon frequency, 2♠ will be the winner in the long run (more good results after bidding 2♠ than after passing). But based upon anticipated results, bidding here at imps, will lead to enough larger negative swings to make it unwise in my opinion (this hand is not worth the 14 hcp it seems to have 5-2-3-3 is not great distribution, 2 hearts is not a great holding, the king of hearts should be discounted).

There is a third consideration here. Your opponents are vulnerable. IF WEST has any extra, he will make a game try. If he passes, your partner will know you ahve a nice hand. Under these conditions, your partner will strain to reopen despite your pass if it goes 2H-P-P-P....

Ben

You really have all these thoughts and worries
before bidding?

[inquiry]

Brandal, on Mar 22 2005, 02:10 PM, said:

You really have all these thoughts and worries
before bidding?

All of them? Of course not.

I do know I would bid 2S at matchpoints with this hand
I do know I woud bid 2S at imps not vul with this hand
I do know that I discount the heart king and require better spades or stronger hand to bid 2S vul at IMPS.

I would bid 2S if the heart king was diamond king.. that is give me
KT98x xx AKJ Kxx I would bid 2S (same dist, same point count, same honor count)... it is that close.

Ben

[luke warm]

whereagles, on Mar 22 2005, 11:36 AM, said:

2S too unilateral..? It may look so, but it is not that unilateral if pard is alert. He should reason the obar 2S is often made on the principle "they have fit, we have fit", so with 1-3-54 or 2-3-53, he could perhaps try 3m.

It can go wrong, of course, but the point is 2S needn't always show 6 cards or goodish 5 and you have to cater for it being made on a broken 5 card. Especially in fit auctions.

imo partner would almost never bid 3m over my 2S... only if he is stiff/void with a 6+ card suit...

as i said earlier, i wouldn't bid 2S here because i don't really want a spade lead and because my ♥K is not pulling full weight... to compete at all isn't even clear, at imps, but if i did i would double

[ritong]

hi
my concern is : what will be my feelings if my part raises to game? here, i wud be HAPPY, so i overcall 2♠ . the possible game bonus is a good counterpart to possible heavy penalty, and there is an other subterranean reason, my part is supposed to balance 1♥pass2♥pass pass with practically any hand, and what will i bid?

[Walddk]

ritong, on Mar 22 2005, 01:57 PM, said:

hi
my concern is : what will be my feelings if my part raises to game? here, i wud be HAPPY, so i overcall 2♠ . the possible game bonus is a good counterpart to possible heavy penalty, and there is an other subterranean reason, my part is supposed to balance 1♥pass2♥pass pass with practically any hand, and what will i bid?

If he does, Henri, you will know that he bid your hand too. Pass is therefore clear to me. No need to punish him for doing the right thing: balancing.

Roland

[ritong]

there is few to be said about the ♥king, also..
1)if i am declarer, LHO will lead a ♥ most likely, even holding the ace
2)if he does not do that, his other lead may well be good to us
so, tear up this card is pessimistic , in my view

[inquiry]

ritong, on Mar 22 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

hi
my concern is : what will be my feelings if my part raises to game? here, i wud be HAPPY, so i overcall 2♠ . the possible game bonus is a good counterpart to possible heavy penalty, and there is an other subterranean reason, my part is supposed to balance 1♥pass2♥pass pass with practically any hand, and what will i bid?

Henri is yet another gold star. And no offense to all the other gold stars, who are all obviously great players. Henri is the best one to reply to this thread so far in my opinion. Disagree with Henri's advice only if you are nuts, so bidding 2♠ must be the right bid....

Having said that, I also I have always freely admit to being nuts. I still will not bid 2♠ for the reasons I outlined above, unless 2♥ was alerted as "preemptive" raise.

What are the chances partner will raise to game here if you bid 2♠ opposite a normal or constructive (2/1) 2♥ raise? The odds are nearly zero. The reason seems clear. West has an opening hand vul, so lets say 12 hcp minimum (yes some of us open with less). East made a "constructive" or normal 2♥ raise, say 8 points is reasonable estimate (2/1 can be as much as 10 I guess). And I am looking at 14 hcp. How many does that leave for partner? If they are 12 opposite 8, that leaves him with six. If either oppoent has anything extra, partner will have less than six. So let's say the expectation for partner is from 8 hcp down.

This is why I gave partner six hcp in my example hand earlier. I anticipate partner might have about six hcp. If two of his six hcp is the doubleton heart QUEEN, biddign here is REALLY DANGEROUS. So I didn't give him that. I could also have given him AQxx of spades I guess, but didn't make it that good either. But if you give him the spade AQ and fit, you stll have the same problem.. too many losers in other suits. I can't imagine the actual odds (maybe someone with a deal simulator can do a task), but I think it is 3 times more likely we will get doubled for huge down than partner will have enough to bid a makeable 4♠ after my 2♠ overcall here. So while Henri describes himself "happy" if his parnter bids four spades, I would describe my reactions as more "shock". What six to eight points do you want your partner to have (For game I would guess he would have eight)? How about heart AQ and club Queen? Is that enough?

AQxx
xx
xxx
Qxx

Will you not lose 2C and 2D and maybe only one heart, perhaps two?

How about give your partner more distribution?
AQxx
x
xxx
Qxxx

Now you have a chance, but still risk losing two clubs, two diamonds and heart, and here surely yoru partner will reopen if you pass so you need not risk getting crushed in 2♠X if parntner has some other hand types.

How about
Axxxx
xxx
x
Qxxx

Now you win five spades, 1D, 2 diamond ruffs and 1C, so depends upon where the heart ACE is.

No, I dont think the extremely slim chance of bidding here offset the risk of going crunch in 2♠. If I pass here and partner does me the expected favor of balancing (henri says it is automatic, I agree it is surely very close to automatic), I would try 3♠ over dbl, and 3♣ over 2NT, and pass over 3 of a minor.

Ben

[inquiry]

For what it is worth, I asked bridgebrowser to find all hand that started 1H-P-2H-2S where the 2S bidder had at least 13 hcp and not more than 17 hcp with 5332 distribution (5S and any other 332). These were self-selecting in that at least one player had to be "brave" enough to bid 2S. I then used JACK to figure out how many tricks in spades and hearts the hands could make. There are 23 hands, shown below.

Take a look if you are interested. There were only two hands were partner of the 2S bidder had enough to make game. Once where he hand a takeout double of a psyche 1H and didn;t, the other where overcaller hand solid spades and three hearts, and the reaponder had 6 hcp (two minor kings), and a singleton heart.

Also look where even when 2S works, the partner may "overbid in response".

Quote

========================================
C:\BRBR\2s.txt
Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 22-Mar-05
========================================
IMP-5       West        Dlr: South
Board 367   S 64        Vul: N-S
            H 732      
South       D 42        North      
S T93       C Q97632    S KJ2      
H AKT6                  H Q984     
D AJ9       East        D T7653    
C AJ4       S AQ875     C 5        
            H J5       
            D KQ8      
            C KT8      

South    West     North    East    
1H       Pass     2H       2S      

You can. with accurate play, win 7 tricks for 2S down one. Here the hand is more "ideal" as most of the hcp are working. Your opponents can make 5H or they can stop off to double you. Most didn't bid game with "their" cards/

7 11 They bid their game, we ahd best not bid 4S

IMP-7       West        Dlr: East 
Board 1542  S Q8        Vul: E-W
            H J73      
South       D 975       North      
S T2        C KQ764     S K9765    
H 854                   H AQ       
D KT6432    East        D QJ8      
C A2        S AJ43      C JT3      
            H KT962    
            D A        
            C 985      

South    West     North    East    
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S       Pass    
Pass     3H       Pass     Pass    
Pass    
Opening lead: ST    Result: Made 3
Score: 140         

If they double 2S (assume vul) they collect 1 or 2 imps depending on if 3 or 4H made at other table).. or they can bid 4H and play to make.


IMP-11      East        Dlr: North
Board 485   S Q762      Vul: N-S
            H Q93      
North       D Q96       South      
S J5        C T97       S 98       
H AKT75                 H 642      
D 8754      West        D T32      
C AQ        S AKT43     C KJ432    
            H J8       
            D AKJ      
            C 865      

North    East     South    West    
1H       Pass     2H       2S      
Pass     Pass     Pass    

This would be a wash if both vul. If you pass, they are down one (+100 for you), and you can make exactly 2s (+110). But this hand has stong spades and the good diamond suit so we will all be overcalling. What is partner to do? Why he will be sorely tempted to bid 3S, with four card spade support to an honor and a probably working diamond Queen. If he does, you just converted a push into minus five imps.


MP-42       South       Dlr: East 
Board 214   S T986      Vul: E-W
            H 8        
East        D KT9       West       
S 5         C K9842     S J74      
H AKJT94                H Q72      
D AQ        North       D 87532    
C J765      S AKQ32     C T3       
            H 653      
            D J64      
            C AQ       

East     South    West     North   
1H       Pass     2H       2S      
3C       4S       Pass     Pass    
Pass    

This is the hand Ritong was worried about, partner jumping to game. But here, you can imagine hands were partner has 6 to 8 points that let you make. Your third heart includes the chance partner has a singleton heart. Your good spade honors make it more likely your partner;s hoped for points are going to be useful in the side suits. This is the type hand Roland and I was talking about needing better spades.


MP-50       North       Dlr: West 
Board 784   S K76       Vul: E-W
            H QT3      
West        D JT84      East       
S J4        C 943       S T95      
H AK976                 H J42      
D 9632      South       D A7       
C KQ        S AQ832     C JT852    
            H 85       
            D KQ5      
            C A76      

West     North    East     South   
1H       Pass     2H       2S      

Here is the 6 imp swing hand Justin was talking about. Both sides can make exactly 8 tricks. But here is one difference. This hand is “better” than the one in this thread, so 2S overcall here is not such a bad idea.


MP-11       South       Dlr: South
Board 927   S 42        Vul: N-S
            H KQT4     
East        D A4        West       
S KQJ83     C KJ832     S 76       
H A9                    H J763     
D K72       North       D QT93     
C T97       S AT95      C Q64      
            H 852      
            D J865     
            C A5       

East     South    West     North   
         1H       Pass     2H*     
2S      

Hewre with better spades, and heart ace instead of king, bidding 2S is a huge disaster… even if they don’t double you lose 2 imps, if they double 8. You can win 6 tricks in spades, they can win 9 in hearts.


MP-24       North       Dlr: South
Board 559   S K         Vul: N-S
            H T5432    
West        D QJT6      East       
S T983      C J63       S Q7652    
H 9                     H Q7       
D 532       South       D K74      
C Q9874     S AJ4       C AKT      
            H AKJ86    
            D A98      
            C 52       

West     North    East     South   
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      
They are unlikely to stop to double you in 2S. They can win 11 tricks in hearts, you have 7 tricks in spades.

IMP-25      East        Dlr: West 
Board 608   S 8653      Vul: E-W
            H K62      
North       D 74        South      
S QJ9       C Q864      S AKT74    
H J85                   H A4       
D Q985      West        D J32      
C KT7       S 2         C J52      
            H QT973    
            D AKT6     
            C A93      

North    East     South    West    
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      

Bidding here risk losing 3 imps or 8 imps if your partner with a good fitting hand raises to 3S and if he bids 4S? Forget about it. Here you can make 1S and they can make 3H. 


IMP-26      South       Dlr: North
Board 1397  S 74        Vul: N-S
            H T97      
East        D J7653     West       
S A865      C A53       S KQT92    
H 864                   H 53       
D 84        North       D AQ9      
C J842      S J3        C Q96      
            H AKQJ2    
            D KT2      
            C KT7      

East     South    West     North   
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S       3H      
3S       Pass     Pass     4H      
Pass     Pass     Pass    
Opening lead: D8    Result: Made 5

The “south” player here will bid on over 2S. If your partner with four card support bids 3S you could easily be -200 for lose of 2 imps. You can win 8 tricks in spades, they can win 9 in hearts.

IMP-38      South       Dlr: North
Board 1061  S           Vul: N-S
            H JT5      
East        D 852       West       
S 9762      C K987632   S KJT43    
H 32                    H Q64      
D K94       North       D QJ7      
C QJT5      S AQ85      C A4       
            H AK987    
            D AT63     
            C          

East     South    West     North   
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      

They can make 4H, you can make 1S. They will out bid you. Note the “north” hand is weaker than expected, but his partner is stronger than expected.  Note 2Sx is better than any part-score they might bid.


========================================
10 boards played by *


========================================
G:\2sv.txt
Produced by BRidgeBRowser on 22-Mar-05
========================================
MP-0        East        Dlr: West 
Board 708   S Q865      Vul: Both
            H J43      
North       D A8        South      
S T43       C Q965      S AJ972    
H 76                    H AQ2      
D K95       West        D J6       
C JT843     S K         C A72      
            H KT985    
            D QT7432   
            C K        

North    East     South    West    
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      

You can make 2S, they can make 3H. If you bid 2S, as here, south will  bid again (hard to believe he opened). They will get to 3H. If your partner bids 3S in competition, you will go -200 versus -170



IMP-2       South       Dlr: East 
Board 1146  S Q972      Vul: Both
            H Q9       
East        D JT8       West       
S A3        C AT65      S 54       
H KT75                  H 8642     
D Q542      North       D K76      
C K98       S KJT86     C QJ73     
            H AJ3      
            D A93      
            C 42       

East     South    West     North   
1H       Pass     2H       2S      
Pass     3S       Pass     4S      
Pass     Pass     Pass    

Ok, here is the hand I discussed where I said as long as raise to 2H is not “preemptive”. Notice if you pass, partner will balance, and you will get to 3S. If you bid, you will end up in 4S down. Here the most you can do is 3S, while they can only take 7 tricks in hearts.


MP-3        West        Dlr: East 
Board 378   S 4         Vul: Both
            H Q87      
South       D AJ843     North      
S J75       C K952      S AK632    
H 6                     H AJ       
D K975      East        D QT6      
C JT843     S QT98      C Q76      
            H KT95432  
            D 2        
            C A        

South    West     North    East    
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S   

You can make one spade, they can make 4H. Your 2S bid will not help, and if your partner decides to bid 4S over 4H you will be very sorry you bid.


MP-3        West        Dlr: East 
Board 1226  S T53       Vul: Both
            H KJ5      
South       D J975      North      
S 87        C AK5       S KJ962    
H 87                    H 642      
D 86432     East        D AK       
C JT92      S AQ4       C Q43      
            H AQT93    
            D QT       
            C 876      

South    West     North    East    
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      

Another one where they can win 10 tricks in hearts and you can win 7 tricks in spades. If they were not going to game, you are likely to be doubled… but your 2S bid probably will encourage the opener to up-evalate his hand and bid the game. You have 7, they have 10 tricks.


MP-4        North       Dlr: South
Board 387   S J97543    Vul: E-W
            H A64      
West        D 3         East       
S A2        C QT2       S KQT86    
H 7                     H J92      
D QT875     South       D J4       
C J8643     S           C AK7      
            H KQT853   
            D AK962    
            C 95       

West     North    East     South   
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S      

Your 2S bid is of no consequence, they will bid 4H. If your partner takes the push to 4S you will be sorry. They have 10 tricks in hearts, you have 7 in spades


IMP-5       East        Dlr: North
Board 697   S KQ53      Vul: E-W
            H 5        
North       D Q9876     South      
S 98        C A85       S 42       
H AK9632                H JT87     
D 43        West        D T52      
C JT9       S AJT76     C K743     
            H Q4       
            D AKJ      
            C Q62      

North    East     South    West    
1H       Pass     2H       2S      

This hand is not worth discussing, The “east” hand has a double over 1H and clearly south has a 2S call without the double and much will be bid.



MP-6        North       Dlr: East 
Board 586   S 3         Vul: Both
            H J73      
West        D 53        East       
S T962      C AK98764   S AQ874    
H 85                    H Q9       
D J9842     South       D QT6      
C 52        S KJ5       C QJT      
            H AKT642   
            D AK7      
            C 3        

West     North    East     South   
                  Pass     1H      
Pass     2H       2S      


No body overcalls 2S here.. just tells them how to play.


MP-11       South       Dlr: East 
Board 778   S JT93      Vul: Both
            H Q2       
East        D T2        West       
S 5         C AQT54     S 742      
H K7643                 H J95      
D AJ54      North       D KQ763    
C J92       S AKQ86     C K3       
            H AT8      
            D 98       
            C 876      

East     South    West     North   
1H       Pass     2H       2S      

Here is another hand with good quality spades, the third heart is useful as partner rates to be short. A sound 2S overcall. As it is, catching partner with monster, you still can only make 3S without a heart lead.


IMP-14      South       Dlr: East 
Board 162   S Q63       Vul: N-S
            H J7       
East        D 7642      West       
S J4        C KQ93      S 972      
H QT5432                H K96      
D AJT5      North       D Q9       
C A         S AKT85     C J8742    
            H A8       
            D K83      
            C T65      

East     South    West     North   
1H       Pass     2H       2S      


Again Two spade is not buying the contract. This time at least if partner bids 4S it is a good sacrifice, as they can make 4H and you are only down two in 4Sx.  B



IMP-14      West        Dlr: West 
Board 364   S 6         Vul: N-S
            H AKQJ8    
South       D 542       North      
S KQJ85     C JT95      S 943      
H 65                    H T93      
D J86       East        D AK93     
C AK7       S AT72      C 863      
            H 742      
            D QT7      
            C Q42      

South    West     North    East    
         1H       Pass     2H      
2S      

After you bid 2S with WEST hand, no way your partner is not bidding at least 3S with two quick tricks and three card support. This gets you to 3Sx down at least two (you can hold it to down one). You can make 8 tricks in spade, they 9 tricks  in hearts.

IMP-16      South       Dlr: North
Board 1277  S KT9       Vul: Both
            H J532     
East        D Q         West       
S Q872      C QT652     S AJ653    
H 87                    H KQ       
D KJ32      North       D T97      
C 873       S 4         C AK9      
            H AT964    
            D A8654    
            C J4       

East     South    West     North   
                           1H      
Pass     2H       2S       Pass    
Pass    

This EAST is too strong to pass, both sides can make 9 tricks (as predicted by the law). But will West stop short of game given the vul overcall? Close.



IMP-17      West        Dlr: South
Board 535   S T4        Vul: Both
            H A4       
South       D JT965     North      
S J         C 9542      S A7632    
H KJT63                 H 985      
D AQ84      East        D K7       
C T83       S KQ985     C Q76      
            H Q72      
            D 32       
            C AKJ      

South    West     North    East    
1H       Pass     2H       Dbl     
Pass     3D       3H       3S      
Pass     Pass     Pass    

Both sides can make 8 tricks. The 2S bid should get you a good result, but here is what happened to the one fellow who bid it… his partner took the push. So even when the bid wins, it can back fire on you. And this 3S should really have been doubled given the five-one split. Of course 3S was not well thought out.


MP-18       West        Dlr: West 
Board 132   S KT        Vul: Both
            H Q8653    
South       D KQ63      North      
S 6         C JT        S Q9842    
H 4                     H AJ       
D J98752    East        D AT4      
C A7632     S AJ753     C K84      
            H KT972    
            D          
            C Q95      

South    West     North    East    
         Pass     Pass     1H      
Pass     2H       2S       3H      
Pass     4H       Pass     Pass    

They can win 10 tricks in hearts, you 7 in spades. Of course, this bidding by everyone is odd.


========================================
13 boards played by Opener

[sceptic]

oh well, in my humble opinion I still think pass is better than 2 spades, if opener had 5H and 4S and 18 hcp I would rather he bid his game than land me in 2Sx, I think pass and wait for p's balance is still better than overcalling 2 spades with a mediocre suit and no redeaming features about the hand. KH is prob worth nothing

may be not vuln against vuln I would bid 2 S at imps but pass looks best at mps as I would hope p aggresively balances.

I have been called nuts before so I don't mind LOL

[ritong]

hi again:)

just a word more about this topic..my general policy is not trying to solve a specific situation with a specific answer, but is more oriented towards trying to establish general guidelines, if possible.
the overcall subject is interesting, because it gathers a lot of pre-conceived considerations, like directing a lead , not risking a heavy penalty , and others . these considerations make sense, of course , but they are relatively secondary, i think, compared to the primitive goal of almost any bid : play in ATTACK .
when i overcall, i hope to be raised, and i hope to be raised high .
i admit easily that , in the submitted hand, chances to be raised to game are low, but they exist , mostly if my pard is reluctant to overcall with, say, 5 ♠ to the ace , some side king and a singleton , which , all in all, is not so much less probable than getting caught for - 500 .
there are also some tactical considerations which are not easy to quantify , like " you won t have a peaceful walk, guys"..
in some recent vugraph, roland declared himself amazed by the fact that people overcall with such " rotten " hands, particularly the italians if i remind well, and get away with it. i did not check closely, but i m pretty sure that in every case, game contract possibilities were in the picture , as a compensation to possible misfortunes , and , if the game level could not be reached, the usual side effects , like bothering opps, occured here & there.

well, thanks if you standed all that blah-blah til now

[Walddk]

ritong, on Mar 23 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

in some recent vugraph, roland declared himself amazed by the fact that people overcall with such " rotten " hands, particularly the italians if i remind well, and get away with it.

I was referring to the apparently modern style of overcalling on very bad suits, i.e. 10xxxx, Jxxxx and the like. That works for the Italians among others it seems, but they only do this at the 1-level at least.

On the actual hand I am pretty sure that not even one Italian would overcall at the 2-level vulnerable if spades had been Jxxxx. I have a feeling that the majority would choose double rather than 2♠ if they bid with the hand in my first post.

Roland

[whereagles]

The analysis is interesting. I must say I'm surprised 2S doesn't fare well more often. That's not what my judgement was telling me. But perhaps judgement incorporates some tactical issues that were not considered in real life data.

Point is, bidding 2S often leads to them taking the push to 3H. That's one closer to going down, and going down is bound to happen at least some times. As long as pard is educated not to take 2S too seriously (which he in fact shouldn't - it's an OBAR bid), you won't have much trouble because opps will hardly ever be in a position to double you for penalties.