[broze]

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South deals and has a fairly clear 1♥ opener imo. But how should the bidding go from there?

EDIT: Okay, I forgot this is the internet where nothing should be assumed. Maybe 1H is not so clear. Feel free to comment on the bidding whatever South opens, using whatever methods you prefer.

[mikeh]

I would never open 1♥ as South, and think it to be clearly wrong to do so unless one is playing a strong club method. I know that a lot of players think that opening light makes them 'aggressive' and that being 'aggressive' means one is playing well. I agree with that in many ways, but not when it comes to opening an Aceless 10 count with a bad suit and only 2 controls.

So I guess that counts out my ability to provide meaningful input.

[broze]

mikeh, on 2015-July-08, 13:03, said:

So I guess that counts out my ability to provide meaningful input.

Well, not really. You could say how your auction would go for example. In fact you don't even say what your call would be with the South hand.

[ggwhiz]

broze, on 2015-July-08, 13:09, said:

Well, not really. You could say how your auction would go for example. In fact you don't even say what your call would be with the South hand.

Well, I guess pass is a call. Too much outside and a crappy suit for a weak 2. Rofl at a 1♥ bid.

[billw55]

I think that many players would either pass as south, or open 2♥.

West will likely pass over 1♥, although some may venture an offshape takeout double.

If west passes, north might try either pass or 1♠. East will then bid some number of clubs. If 2♣, south might muster up a 2♥ rebid. If 3♣ or more, south will pass.

If west doubles 1♥, north will likely pass, although this is still not certain. Next east might either jump in clubs, perhaps all the way to [5cl]; or maybe try something in hearts, angling to find a stopper with west.

Interesting deal, everyone seems to have alternatives. In any case, I expect in the end EW will buy the contract in either 3NT or 5♣.

[nige1]

Possible auction on left with comments.

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[mikeh]

broze, on 2015-July-08, 13:09, said:

Well, not really. You could say how your auction would go for example. In fact you don't even say what your call would be with the South hand.

I'd usually pass but with some partners I would open 2♥. Only in those partnerships wherein we play a form of ogust responses....I'd show a bad suit and a good hand. Even then, this would be a close call and pass is a very plausible alternative, while 1♥ would not be.

West has an opening bid, and what it is depends on NT range. Weak NT and it is an easy 1N, otherwise an equally easy 1D. If S opened 2H then West has an easy pass.

N has an easy pass regardless of any action so far by S or W

East's action obviously depends on what the 1st two players did. After 2H P P, 3♣ since 4C would be leaping michaels (assuming that is in use) and even if it weren't, the hand is wrong for higher club action, since with xx in hearts, we may have too many losers, but more to the point, 3N is in sight so long as we don't over pre-empt. 3H would be a plausible, if risky, choice if it asks for a heart stopper for 3N but I don't tend to enjoy rolling the dice that much. Depends on mood, state of match, partner, etc.

If S passed, then over a weak 1N, it would depend on methods. Ideally I'd like to show clubs with mild slam interest, but that may not be possible. Over 1♦ I would respond 2♣ and how it went thereafter is a matter of style (what does opener rebid?) and agreement (is a rebid of 3♣ forcing, or sensible, if forcing, in the context of opener's rebid)

So the reason I criticized the 1♥ choice of the OP and then didn't offer my views was because there are too many options, and we don't know enough about the methods in use.

[blackshoe]

Using Marty Bergen's methods, this hand has 11 "starting points" and one quick trick. It does not meet the "rule of 20" or the "rule of 22" (rule of 20 plus two quick tricks). So it's not strong enough for a one level opening. It's not too strong for a two level opening, though. That's what I'd do. 2♥, or 2♦ playing multi.

[broze]

mikeh, on 2015-July-08, 14:25, said:

<snip>

Fair enough. I probably should have started the OP with "bid these hands using your favourite methods". I appreciate there are a lot of variables.

[FrancesHinden]

Well, I'd open the South hand 1H in my most regular partnership. we don't play a strong 1C system, but opening on this sort of hand is systemic. I think the bad press you are giving it is mistaken, as long as the partnership agree that this is what a minimum opening bid looks like. If you think an opening bid needs more quick tricks or more points or more playing strength (or more something) then you don't open (or in particular, if that is what your partner thinks).

However, I disagree strongly with the idea that North has "an easy pass" whatever South or West have done.
North has an easy response if South opens at the 1-level. All sorts of good things happen when you respond on very light very distributional hands and very few bad things. This is a hand I'd respond on whatever my partnership agreement (unlike the decision on whether to open at the 1-level or not, which I think is a matter of agreement). As it is, my system card says responses are "0+ HCP" so no-one will even be surprised.

Would you rather be trying to bid the EW hands after the auction starts P 1D/1NT P ? or after 1H P 1S (or 1H P 1NT showing 5 spades) ?

If they get to 3NT by West then at least South is getting a heart lead, which is by far the best lead for their side.

[MrAce]

broze, on 2015-July-08, 12:59, said:

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South deals and has a fairly clear 1♥ opener imo. But how should the bidding go from there?

I would not open S hand 1♥. Perhaps 2♥ but I prefer to pass.

I open the W hand that's for sure. After that I will end up in 6♣ going down with an auction that starts 1♦-2♣ (gf 2/1) NS remaining silent through out.

IF S opens 2♥, and W passes, it will be very hard to reach the good but failing slam.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on 2015-July-08, 14:37, said:

However, I disagree strongly with the idea that North has "an easy pass" whatever South or West have done.

wow...that was a strong response to my post! Maybe re-read it and note that in ALL of the discussion I gave of N's action, it was based on S passing or opening 2♥. Indeed, I only gave my suggestions for auctions because I was challenged to say what I would do, having announced that I would NOT open 1♥.

I suspect that you would agree that had S opened 2♥ or passed, then N has an 'easy pass'? Ok, maybe N might feel that the time was ripe to create some confusion, but that wouldn't be my choice with but two hearts, and at equal.

Had I said that one of the alternatives that I contemplated was a 1♥ opening bid, then I would have commented that I rarely pass one-level opening bids by partner if I have anything to suggest bidding, and here I do. I would bid 1♠. I am delighted if partner raises or bids 1N, since in the latter I can get out in 2♦. I am ok if he bids 2N, since I can get out in 3♦, playing my preferred transfer methods. I am happy with a 2♥ rebid, and am close to raising a 3♥ rebid to game! So while a club rebid would be awkward, and other scenarios could work out badly, I would always respond to a 1♥ opening.

As for you having a systemic agreement that one can and should open 1♥, that is fine with me (not that that matters) because I assume that your partnership style and agreements are designed to cater to this range. Top-flight players in well-tuned partnerships can successfully adopt almost any style and I wouldn't presume that members of such partnerships felt that my opinions and suggestions were directed at them

Edit: especially given that this is the I/A forum

[cherdano]

If you play a style where you open most balanced 11 counts, then it seems a good idea to also open this kind of hand at the one-level. We have a little more playing strength, and almost as much defense as these balanced 11s.
It's not like you can describe your hand better with another option. The flaws of 2♥ with a hand as strong as this one, as much defense, and a weak suit are obvious. The flaws of Pass with a hand as good as this one, both on offense and defense, are obvious. Sometimes you can catch up (e.g. if partner bids Ogust over 2♥), sometimes you can't (the opponents bid over 2♥ and partner competes; or the bidding goes (P) 1♠ (P) after you pass).

[Cyberyeti]

Routine 1♥ opener for us (again not playing strong club) given what our weak 2s can look like and that it meets rule of 19.

1♥-P-1♠ seems likely, anybody's guess what happens next. Form of scoring ?

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2015-July-08, 15:34, said:

Routine 1♥ opener for us

I am in shock (and awe) that a hand Marty Bergen wouldn't open (at the one level) is routine now?

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2015-July-08, 16:09, said:

I am in shock (and awe) that a hand Marty Bergen wouldn't open (at the one level) is routine now?

Routine for us, not for everybody, bear in mind our first in hand weak 2s can be utterly ridiculous so this is way too good, and we open most Ro19 hands at the 1 level unless there's a good reason not to.

[Zelandakh]

In England, it would not surprise me to see the auction P - 1NT - P - 3NT; AP at many tables although a few Easts might mention clubs somehow (and end up disappointed). If South opens ♥, regardless of 1 or 2, I imagine East will bid clubs at a minimum level and West will proceed to 3NT one way or another. I agree with Mike that giving an auction after P - 1♦ - P - 2♣ is difficult without some system discussion but again I would expect all pairs to end up in either 3NT or 6♣.

[helene_t]

Agree with Timo but here are a few alternatives:

2♦ (multi) pass to E, 3♣, W shows his heart stopper, 3NT.

2♥ or multi by S, 3♥ by North, E plays NLM so has to jump to 5♣. On a bad day W raises to 6 which gets doubled. NS play action doubles by preemptor which N thinks applies here so he bids 6♥

South psyches a 1♠ opening and North sacs against 6♣.

If South opens 1♥ maybe North passes it and E balances with 3♣, W 3NT. If North respons 1♠ then probably E just bids 2♣ and same results. But although I agree with Frances that North should respond, I am not sure if it is compatible with such a light opening style.

Of course there is always the possibility that E refuces to play 3NT and insists on clubs.

If DrTodd's Dejeuner system is still alive it may well go 1♣ by South a.p.

[iandayre]

I would not open 1H with the S hand. To answer the question, were I playing the other 3 seats the bidding would go 1H - P - P - 3C - P - 3NT all pass.

[jodepp]

Maybe opening 1♥ isn't so far-fetched if in context of a 'big-club' system...

I wouldn't open 1♥ but I've seen worse bids, so let's assume a 1♥ opener. I'd guess that West doubles (I wouldn't) and that North would Pass. East cuebids and West responds 2♠ and East cuebids again. West - probably regretting the initial double - bids 3NT and East finally describes with 4♣ which West raises (weakest action). I think East would now bid what he/she hopes he/she could make with 6♣.

It's more weird if West Passes 1♥. East's hand is practically unbiddable (it's way to good for 3♣)... does anybody know if 4♣ is forcing? I guess I'd try Double and keep bidding clubs, but even that seems a bit wimpy.