[hokum]

---

Thanks

[helene_t]

No I think this is consistent with a 5404 13-count. Responder's hand is quite well defined with the 2NT bid so opener doesn't need a force below 3NT (although maybe 3♠ should be forcing). I he wants to force just bid 4♣.

[ArtK78]

No natural non-jump bid is forcing opposite a passed hand. In my opinion, 3♠ is not forcing.

I am assuming that the 2♣ call was not conventional.

[helene_t]

 ArtK78, on 2015-July-08, 06:34, said:

No natural non-jump bid is forcing opposite a passed hand.

Strongly disagree with this. The 2♥ bid was forcing (as long as we play a system such as SAYC or modern Acol in which it would be forcing opposite an unpassed hand).

[ArtK78]

 helene_t, on 2015-July-08, 07:14, said:

Strongly disagree with this. The 2♥ bid was forcing (as long as we play a system such as SAYC or modern Acol in which it would be forcing opposite an unpassed hand).

I don't know about ACOL, but in SAYC or any Standard American system, no simple rebid is forcing if partner is a passed hand. Even the 2♣ response to 1♠ is not forcing if it is natural and the 2♣ bidder is a passed hand.

The following is from the ACBL SAYC systems booklet, discussing 2/1 responses:

"NOTE: Responder promises to bid again if he responded with a new suit at the two level unless opener's rebid is at the game level. This applies when responder is an unpassed hand."

[helene_t]

Does this mean that you think that even
pass-1♥
2♣-2♠

or

pass-1♥
2♦-3♣

are nonforcing? It is obvious that opener can pass a new suit by a responder who is a passed hand since responder is limited, but I don't see any reason why opener should be limited just because his partner happens to be a passed hand.

[Cyberyeti]

 ArtK78, on 2015-July-08, 08:14, said:

I don't know about ACOL, but in SAYC or any Standard American system, no simple rebid is forcing if partner is a passed hand. Even the 2♣ response to 1♠ is not forcing if it is natural and the 2♣ bidder is a passed hand.

The following is from the ACBL SAYC systems booklet, discussing 2/1 responses:

"NOTE: Responder promises to bid again if he responded with a new suit at the two level unless opener's rebid is at the game level. This applies when responder is an unpassed hand."

So if I have a 15/16 count 5-4 in the majors I have to rebid 3♥ because 2♥ can be passed, ridiculous.

I think the case where a passed responder can pass is 1♠-2♣-2♠ but not a new suit.

[mikeh]

 ArtK78, on 2015-July-08, 06:34, said:

No natural non-jump bid is forcing opposite a passed hand. In my opinion, 3♠ is not forcing.

I am assuming that the 2♣ call was not conventional.

this is clearly wrong.

No natural non-reverse, non-change of level bid is forcing opposite a passed hand, assuming a strong 1N method (in a weak 1n method, 1♦ 2♣ 2N (showing a 15-17 hand) would imo be forcing)

Thus 1M 2D 3C is forcing to game in standard methods

1D 2C 2M is forcing one round.

[mikeh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-July-08, 08:57, said:

So if I have a 15/16 count 5-4 in the majors I have to rebid 3♥ because 2♥ can be passed, ridiculous.

I think the case where a passed responder can pass is 1♠-2♣-2♠ but not a new suit.

bear in mind that no good player plays SAYC unless playing with a friend or client who doesn't know better. Never look to SAYC for a guide as to how competent NA players bid

However, having said that, and bearing in mind that I haven't played a natural 2♣ response to a 3rd or 4th seat major opening bid in many, many years, I do think that technically 1S then 2H is non-forcing. It doesn't really matter to me, since virtually the entire NA universe plays some kind of drury. I also, despite the views expressed by Fred G. confess to playing 2D as a form of drury, so for me the entire topic is moot.

[blackshoe]

I played with one of the local players here the other day (he asked me to play with him). First thing he said to me was "I don't play Drury."

[hokum]

I was playing "14-30, reverse signals" with someone who hasn't played much bridge for a while:

---

Bidding 3♣ here feels similar to delayed-raise-extras auctions like:

1♣-1♥
1♠-1NT
2♥

6♣ is a nice spot, and I wanted to bid it. Perhaps I should have.

I asked somebody how they bid 7♠ on Board 6 on Monday night. "Well I reached into my bidding box and put 7♠ on the table.":
http://www.nswba.com...=10&R=5&B=6&T=O
1♥ (2♦) 2♠ /
7♠

[aguahombre]

Well, Hokum: There is one pair in NA who is on your side.

1) We don't find the need for Drury because our 3/4 seat Major openings are as good or better than our 1/2 seat major suit openings.
2) North would have about that hand.
3) 2♣ guarantees a rebid.
4) If Opener just wanted to raise clubs she would have raised clubs.

Therefore, when Opener bids 2H and then 3C, she is strong and patterned. We have had these auctions in the past, but would not dare trying it with anyone else because the rest of the free World would not be on our page.

[ArtK78]

 mikeh, on 2015-July-08, 09:12, said:

this is clearly wrong.

No natural non-reverse, non-change of level bid is forcing opposite a passed hand, assuming a strong 1N method (in a weak 1n method, 1♦ 2♣ 2N (showing a 15-17 hand) would imo be forcing)

Thus 1M 2D 3C is forcing to game in standard methods

1D 2C 2M is forcing one round.

Sorry. Should have been more complete. Clearly a bid at the 2 level in a higher ranking suit is forcing and just as clearly a "high-reverse" (1M - 2♦ - 3♣) is forcing. But the general principal is that any rebid by opener that does not show extra values can be passed.

And, in response to Cyberyeti, if you want to force responder to bid, you can't bid just 2♥.

I remember playing with one of the local experts when I had been playing for only a few months (this is back in 1973). I had learned bidding primarily from a basic Goren book.

We had an old-fashioned Standard American auction in which a 2/1 bid promised 10+HCP. At the time, we played the traditional forcing double raise of an opening bid and a non-forcing 1NT response. So the way to invite game was to bid 2 of a suit first before raising. The bidding went 1♠ - 2♣ - 3♣ - 3♠ - 4♠. 4♠ was the right spot and duly made, and I was very happy about the auction until my partner pointed out to me that I was a passed hand and that she could have passed my 2♣ bid.

[jallerton]

 hokum, on 2015-July-08, 05:54, said:

---

Thanks

Yes, forcing for me. If Opener had a minimum hand with clubs (including 5404) he could have raised to 3♣ on the previous round. A weak 5413 (if not having raised clubs or passed 2C) would pass 2NT. So this sequence shows a stronger hand, typically 5413/5503/6403. A good 5404 might also be possible, although Opener might prefer a 3♦ splinter over 2♣ with that hand.

[MrAce]

Pass--1♠
2m -- 2♥ is 100 % forcing (1 round) to me.

Assuming that 2m promised a good 8 to 9-11 hcp, the idea of having to jump with 14 or 15+ hands by opener is at best scary idea to me. It also messes up with opener's raise of the responder's minor hands. Including very useful 4 card fir + singleton splinter bids. Now I remember those who are picky openers when they hold 12 hcp, or those who are capable of coming from pass with AAK 5 control balanced hands. it is even worse for them to play this 2♥ NF. Oh my...I can see so many things going wrong when you preempt yourself in a constructive auction and no clue yet where we have a fit if any. Yes when 2♥ is defined NF it looks like may help in further bidding, but when pd is coming from pass it makes little or no sense to me.

I will give up on ability to stay in 2♥ on any day.

[helene_t]

If you play 2/1 obviously you will have to discuss what system you play by a passed hand. But assuming that the initial pass does not deny the strength for a 2level response I don't see why you would play a different system by a passed hand except that of course opener can pass whenever he feels like as responder is limited.

Mikeh: You say that it doesn't matter since "everybody" plays Drury but even if you play 2/1 and two-way Drury, you still have to discuss which system you play after
pass-1♦
2♣
and
pass-1♠
2♥.
And I don't believe that it is true that everybody plays two-way Drury so you also need to discuss what system you play after
pass-1M
2♦.

Playing 2/1 I would suggest that a natural 2/1 bid by a passed hand promises a rebid. This means that a light 3rd seat opener needs to be able to pass any response.

But this doesn't answer the op question. I can see a case for 3c being forcing or nonforcing but since 3d must be forcing maybe we can use 3d as the generic force. For English people who often use fsf by opener this might even appky undiscussed.

Maybe the optimal system would be transfers. Or 3d as a kind of wolf signoff. This would resolve the dilemmas about 3h and 3s at the same time.

[Cyberyeti]

 ArtK78, on 2015-July-08, 14:19, said:

And, in response to Cyberyeti, if you want to force responder to bid, you can't bid just 2♥.

Then SAYC is even more broken than I thought it was. Presumably 2N/3♣ are NF too so after 1♠-2♣-3♥ responder is on a complete guess whether partner has 1 club or 3 and opener has to guess whether to remove 3N with 3 clubs where it might be the last making spot. I don't know if there are situations in SAYC (there are in Acol) where responder mght only have 4 clubs which would make things even worse.

[Jinksy]

I've always played SAYC as helene and co describe. Stopping in 2♥ on a combined 22 count isn't such a great boon that I want to give up constructive bidding for it.

Obviously as a 3rd-seat opener I can pass anything I damn well please.

 ArtK78, on 2015-July-08, 08:14, said:

"NOTE: Responder promises to bid again if he responded with a new suit at the two level unless opener's rebid is at the game level. This applies when responder is an unpassed hand."

That doesn't tell you anything about the issue at hand - it only says that passed hand can't gameforce, which we already knew.

[alok c]

If 2C bid is natural then 3C is forcing.