[Liversidge]

I play Modern Acol (though I suspect the answer might be the same in most systems).

1♣ -(P) - 1♠ - (2♦) - 2♥

I don't think it is a reverse with 16-18 HCP - I might have 15 HCP, five iffy clubs, four goodish hearts and a singleton spade. But with only 12 HCP I would be pushing partner too high if he only has four spades and 6 HCP, so would pass, as partner has another bid.

So what would partner reasonably expect after my rebid?

[Vampyr]

How would you have bid the hand you are suggesting without the opponents' 2♦ bid?

[wank]

yes it's a reverse. the opps' bidding makes it easier for you. you just pass and wait for partner to act. if he has hearts he'll bid them or double.

[wanoff]

No more than an opening hand with say 6-4. With a strong hand, 15+ I prefer to double.

[Cyberyeti]

What does double mean for you ?

[helene_t]

 wanoff, on 2015-July-05, 10:52, said:

No more than an opening hand with say 6-4. With a strong hand, 15+ I prefer to double.

This is a reasonable agreement but I think that "standard" is that it shows 16+.

[Liversidge]

 Vampyr, on 2015-July-05, 10:44, said:

How would you have bid the hand you are suggesting without the opponents' 2♦ bid?

The hand I had in mind when asking the question was as follows:

---

Without the overcall I would have rebid my clubs. If I bid 2♥ will I be misleading partner about my strength?

[Liversidge]

 Cyberyeti, on 2015-July-05, 10:58, said:

What does double mean for you ?

We have just started playing the negative double and I can now see that a double in this situation (when a minor and a major have been bid) shows 4 cards in the unbid major, so that seems to be the answer here.

[wank]

 Liversidge, on 2015-July-05, 11:38, said:

We have just started playing the negative double and I can now see that a double in this situation (when a minor and a major have been bid) shows 4 cards in the unbid major, so that seems to be the answer here.

no it's not. your hand's not good enough to double here. it shows extra values.

what would you suggest partner bid over 2dx with ajxx xxx jxxx xx? 2h and get raised to 4 when you actually have a good hand? pass and watch it make doubled overtricks?

you have a minimum opening bid and no fit for spades. pass and wait to see what partner does. if he has hearts he'll act and you'll know what to do. if he has clubs he can bid them. if he has extra spades he can bid then. if he has diamonds he'll pass if he's weak and you'll be much happier defending 2d than playing some non-fit at the 2 or 3 level. if he has diamonds and he's strong he can bid no trumps.

double here wouldn't guarantee 4 hearts either. it just shows a good hand and no convenient bid [you have a convenient bid, pass, and you don't have a good hand] the only time doubles really guarantees any particular suit is 1C (1D) x = both majors, 1m (1S) x = 4+ hearts and 1m (1h) x = well, this one depends on agreement. a common agreement for 1m (1h) x is exactly 4 spades and bidding 1 spade shows 5, but there are other sensible arrangements.

by the way, a reverse isn't limited to 18. good players don't open 2x on every random 22 point hand for example, even if they have natural strong 2 openers available. x Akqx Akxxx KQJ is a 1D opener planning to reverse for example.

[Liversidge]

 Liversidge, on 2015-July-05, 11:38, said:

We have just started playing the negative double and I can now see that a double in this situation (when a minor and a major have been bid) shows 4 cards in the unbid major, so that seems to be the answer here.

Or maybe not! On reflection the negative double is made by responder, so I don't think it applies here.

[Liversidge]

 wank, on 2015-July-05, 12:03, said:

no it's not. your hand's not good enough to double here. it shows extra values.

what would you suggest partner bid over 2dx with ajxx xxx jxxx xx? 2h and get raised to 4 when you actually have a good hand? pass and watch it make doubled overtricks?

you have a minimum opening bid and no fit for spades. pass and wait to see what partner does. if he has hearts he'll act. beginners don't pass enough in these situations.

double here wouldn't guarantee 4 hearts either. it just shows a good hand and no convenient bid [you have a convenient bid, pass, and you don't have a good hand] the only time doubles really guarantees any particular suit is 1C (1D) x = both majors, 1m (1S) x = 4+ hearts and 1m (1h) x = well, this one depends on agreement. a common agreement for 1m (1h) x is exactly 4 spades and bidding 1 spade shows 5, but there are other sensible arrangements.

Got that!

So what sort of hand would a rebid of 2♥ show in terms of points and cards in diamonds and hearts, assuming it has some sensible meaning at all?

[Wackojack]

Playing Acol 12-14NT you might have opened 1NT. Having decided to open 1♣then ofcourse you have to pass. Partner will put you with an unbalanced had with at least 5 clubs and more or less a min opener and take appropriate action. If and its a big if (contraversial) you play support doubles with a weak no trump then when you pass, partner will put you with 1345, 1336 or possibly 2425 and not inclined to open 1N because of doubleton weakness. If you were 1444 then you would not normally open 1♣.

[helene_t]

Dbl can't promise four hearts here. What would you do with Ax-AQx-xxx-AQJxx?

Something else (maybe off topic): you really should open 1nt with this hand.

[aguahombre]

There are two questions here. Yes, 2♥ is a reverse by definition; it forces a preference for your first suit at the 3-level. No, you shouldn't do that without a lot of playing strength.

[blackshoe]

A reverse is defined as "a simple bid at the two level in a higher ranking suit than the first bid suit (NA meaning; in other parts of the world, including England, such a bid might be at the three level in a lower ranking suit — the 'high reverse')". This bid causes partner to have to bid at the three level to show support for the first bid suit — that's the key to "is it a reverse?"

Whether a reverse shows extra values depends on what responder's first response shows. Consider the uncontested auction 1♥-2♦-2♠. Is 2♠ a reverse? Yes it is, by the definition. Does it show extra values? Well, that depends. If you're playing Acol, Standard American, or some other system where the 2♦ bid is at best forcing one round, it logically must show extra values. If you're playing 2/1 or similar, where 2♦ is already forcing to game, a reverse need not show extra values, and some pairs will agree that it does not, and some will agree that it does. The former will often say "that's not a reverse" or "we don't play reverses", but they're wrong. In either case, a reverse shows shape: a reversing opener will be at least 5-4 in his two suits, and the lower ranking will definitely be longer. If it's not longer, he would have started with the higher ranking suit.

[rmnka447]

Yes, I also think 2 ♥ would be a reverse.

Double would show extras. Why? Responder's bid was ambiguous, it could have been made on weak, intermediate, or strong values. When partner has intermediate or strong values, partner will likely take further action to compete if the auction is passed backed to him/her. Since you cannot know which hand partner has, when you have extras, you want to alert partner with a weak hand that you have enough to compete further. So double says that your side has the balance of power on the hand, you want to compete further, and have no other clear cut bid.

Here, with a minimum hand, you should pass. If partner has intermediate (say 9-11) values, partner can compete further by reopening with a double or bidding a suit. If partner doubles, you may be able to bid 2 ♥ and partner will know you have a minimum hand and 4 ♥.

[Vampyr]

 Wackojack, on 2015-July-05, 12:18, said:

Playing Acol 12-14NT you might have opened 1NT. Having decided to open 1♣then ofcourse you have to pass. Partner will put you with an unbalanced had with at least 5 clubs and more or less a min opener and take appropriate action. If and its a big if (contraversial) you play support doubles with a weak no trump then when you pass, partner will put you with 1345, 1336 or possibly 2425 and not inclined to open 1N because of doubleton weakness. If you were 1444 then you would not normally open 1♣.

Does anyone actually play support doubles with a weak NT?

Even when I am playing a strong NT I prefer takeout doubles, but it's not as clear-cut.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2015-July-05, 12:03, said:

no it's not. your hand's not good enough to double here. it shows extra values.

what would you suggest partner bid over 2dx with ajxx xxx jxxx xx? 2h and get raised to 4 when you actually have a good hand? pass and watch it make doubled overtricks?

This is a matter of agreement, we actually play that X doesn't show extra values. It's not so useful in this exact auction, but the blanket agreement in these 3 suits bid auctions that say 1♥-P-1♠-(2♦)-X shows 4♣ and bidding 3♣ shows 5 has paid dividends many times in the past.

Partner needs a whale to bid 4♥ over 2♥ here, you may play an unsightly 3♥ after he cues and you bid 3♥, but not 4 as he's well aware you could hold this.

[Stephen Tu]

 Vampyr, on 2015-July-05, 13:52, said:

Does anyone actually play support doubles with a weak NT?

Maybe a dozen years ago I asked Eric Kokish about it, he did play "support" doubles albeit he used it as 3cd support *or* 18+ so not exclusively support hands.

[Cascade]

When the auction becomes competitive then your bids need to become more aimed at making a good decision in a competitive auction. In my system notes I have reverses can be shaded in competition. The x4x6 hand described up thread would be an almost mandatory 2♥ bid if unsuitable for a double (takeout for me). Similarly, without the four hearts I would stretch to bid 3♣ often just based on a decent six card club suit. That is the more common situation so the x4x6 hand is really a corollary of that agreement.