[mikeh]

I was given this hand by a friend, apparently given to her as a bidding problem, the original source of which is unknown to me. So some of you may have seen it before.

Playing a 2/1 style with weak 1N opening bids

---

You will probably guess that you will have other decisions later, but for now what do you bid, why do you bid it, and what are your concerns for the future? As a hint, partner won't have a balanced minimum, they are at favourable, and probably have a lot of diamonds

[helene_t]

3♠. Not ideal since p may raise on a doubleton when we have a better fits in hearts (or clubs) but I am not convinced that double will find our best fit either, and if I double I won't be happy if p passes.

[aguahombre]

"Wouldn't you give your hand to a friend?" Melissa Manchester.

"I vote for Helene's answer." me

Suspect 5D will come back to me, but gonna go crazy with 5H and pray.

[WesleyC]

I'd bid 5NT (pick a slam).

Admittedly slam could be hopeless, but we should at least play it in the correct strain!

The major advantage of a direct slam force is that we avoid getting preempted and at the colours West will often be obligated to save even if it's a phantom.

Excellent problem!

[Phil]

I don't think 5N implies 5503 and I'm not in that much of a hurry anyway.

I'll start with 3 ♠. If LHO passes:

Over 3N, 4H.
Over 4C, 5D
Over 4S, 5C

If LHO raises diamonds and partner supports spades Id probably RKC since the chances of finding partner with the dA are minimal.

If LHO throws a big diamond bid at us then I'd trot out 5N.

[mikeh]

I don't think that 5N would be or should be 'pick a slam', since there is an awful lot of bidding space between 3♦ and 5N.

In the meantime, and while this is low frequency, say we held a freak like A AKQJxxx void Kxxxx. All we want to know is whether partner holds the AQ of clubs, so 5N is ideal if used as GSF. While GSF is deservedly an infrequently used call, there are occasions when logic suggests that there is no other sensible use.

As it happens, I chose 3♠, primarily because I wasn't at all sure how to proceed if I doubled, regardless of whether LHO bounced or not. I wasn't worried about partner passing, since partner can see we are red v white, and cannot have a balanced minimum. It isn't that passing is impossible but partner will often try for 3N (by the expedient of bidding it) with 4 chunky diamonds and 5+ clubs, and we won't have missed a slam. Meanwhile, my thinking went, I am probably in better shape over interference if I can show at least one, and often both, of my long suits in a manner that conveys at least 5 cards.

FWIW my friend (who is a fine player with a lot more national titles than I have ) doubled.

Be that is it may, whether you bid double or 3♠, LHO bids 5♦ and partner passes as does rho. Now your call:

1. 1♣ [3♦] 3♠ [5♦] P [P] ?

2. 1♣ [3♦] x [5♦] P [P] ?



I think these problems, which could reasonably have been foreseen (not necessarily as 'probable' but definitely as 'possible'), are more interesting than the 1st round problem which is why I posted these situations so soon after the OP

[quiddity]

SIX DIAMONDS
(on the first round)

But manly set the world on six and seven;
And if thou die a martyr, go to heaven!

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on 2015-July-03, 09:42, said:

Suspect 5D will come back to me, but gonna go crazy with 5H and pray.

mikeh, on 2015-July-03, 11:48, said:

Now your call:

1. 1♣ [3♦] 3♠ [5♦] P [P] ?

After I bid 5♥, maybe it will be time for Partner to play the pick-a-slam card with 5nt, and I bid 6♣.

Getting happy I didn't double last time.

[WesleyC]

mikeh, on 2015-July-03, 11:48, said:

I don't think that 5N would be or should be 'pick a slam', since there is an awful lot of bidding space between 3♦ and 5N.

In the meantime, and while this is low frequency, say we held a freak like A AKQJxxx void Kxxxx. All we want to know is whether partner holds the AQ of clubs, so 5N is ideal if used as GSF. While GSF is deservedly an infrequently used call, there are occasions when logic suggests that there is no other sensible use.

I had the grand-slam force in my kit-bag for about 5 years and literally never used it. Between regular and exclusion keycard I was never dealt a hand where it was necessary. 5D handles your example hand pretty well (admittedly not quite as well as the GSF if the opps interfere). The main practical advantage of using 5NT as pick a slam in all competitive auctions is that it eliminates any ambiguity. If the interference here had been 4D would 5NT still be the GSF? What about over 5D?

I've read enough of your posts to understand it's not your intention but it's a bit insulting to completely disregard the benefits that I mentioned of using 5NT as pick a slam in this situation as illogical without even commenting on them. On this hand, it's not hard to look ahead one round and see that if I start with 3S, it will be very tough to adequately describe my hand on the next round, even if LHO doesn't raise diamonds.

Starting with double would be my second choice. Assuming I'd done that, I'm still going to try 5NT next.

For the record, what would LHO bid over my direct 5NT?

[gszes]

3s

It is not just for the sake of starting to show my suits but for gathering extra intel in case the opps decide to continue their barrage bidding. The 3s bid establishes forcing pass and if p passes 4/5/6 d we know slam is hugely probable just not which strain yet. I would gamble on 6h knowing 6c could have been our last makeable spot and settling for a small slam because too much space has been wasted to search for a grand. Preempts work keep doing them.

[FrancesHinden]

The advantage of having started with 3S is that at least pass is forcing over 5D, so we've learnt more than we did if we doubled first.

[mikeh]

WesleyC, on 2015-July-04, 06:52, said:

I've read enough of your posts to understand it's not your intention but it's a bit insulting to completely disregard the benefits that I mentioned of using 5NT as pick a slam in this situation as illogical without even commenting on them. On this hand, it's not hard to look ahead one round and see that if I start with 3S, it will be very tough to adequately describe my hand on the next round, even if LHO doesn't raise diamonds.

it isn't a question of whether it would be convenient to be able to use 5N as pick a slam. It is a question of whether it is the meaning that most good players would assume it had in this auction, assuming that we simply gave the bidding, without seeing the hand. I happen to think that it is unlikely that the pick a slam meaning would prevail, regardless of how well it would work on this actual hand.

[Dinarius]

Double (negative) is the bid for me. I play it as forcing for one round at this level.

With my 5 loser hand, a slam is almost certain. But, why the rush?

If player on my left supports his partner's diamonds, my partner can still bid.

If, for example, LHO bids 5 diamonds, and it's passed around to me, I can consider either 6 clubs (to play), or bid 6 diamonds (riskier, in my view) forcing partner to choose a major.

They may talk us out of a grand slam, but unlikely a small one.

D.

[aguahombre]

Dinarius, on 2015-July-06, 13:23, said:

Double (negative) is the bid for me. I play it as forcing for nod round at this level.

With my 5 loser hand, a slam is almost certain. But, there's no rush. If player on my left supports his partner's diamonds, my partner can still bid.

If, for example, LHO bids 5 diamonds, and it's passed around to me, I can consider either 6 clubs (to play), or bid 6 diamonds (riskier, in my view) forcing partner to choose a major.

Yes, it is a negative double; yes it has morphed into card-showing at this level. But, partner on my planet is more likely to leave it in with a lot of holdings which would not work well.

[Dinarius]

Or bid on "with a lot of holdings". Take your pick. I stil double.

D.

Ps. If double isn't available, I bid 4 diamonds - obviously asking for a major. If he retreats to 5 clubs, my Kxx are now huge and I bid 6 clubs. Once again, we may make seven (or maybe not even six! 😎) but, if so, we simply have to accept that the preempt did its work.

[mikeh]

Dinarius, on 2015-July-06, 13:58, said:

Ps. If double isn't available, I bid 4 diamonds - obviously asking for a major.

That meaning may be obvious to you but I very much doubt that it is obvious, or even plausible, to many others.

The cuebid of the opps' suit has evolved over the years. It was commonly played, back in the dim, distant past, as promising 1st round control of the suit, a big gameforce hand, and said nothing else...so no inference about support or holding a suit or suits of one's own.

That usage died out as players realized that requiring 1st round control limited its frequency

So it became a GF action, still unlinked to any other information about the hand.

Then that became outdated because players realized that finding fits early was important, especially as bidding became generally more competitive, with far more pre-empts than existed back in the 1950s or 1960s.

The cuebid then became a gf raise, but this, too, became outmoded, again probably at least in part to the tendencies to more aggressive action by all seats.

So responder's cuebid, as an initial action, of an overcalled suit, is generally played as a raise of opener's suit, invitational or better, tho obviously when the cuebid is, as here, 4♦, it is forcing to game. Indeed, it would be normal to play a 4-level cue as showing a stronger raise than a direct game bid, classically in the majors....say 1♠ 3♦ 4♦ is a full-values 4♠ raise, with some extras, while 4♠ would be at most a minimum opening bid.

Clearly, one could agree that in the OP auction 4♦ is the majors, but one has to ask 'why?'

With real majors (5+ in at least one of them), why not bid one? With 4=4 why not double? And how else is one to bid a really good hand in support of clubs?

[Dinarius]

Interesting points.

Partner's hand can be anything, obviously. I also play weak NT always, so his rebid may be 1NT 15-17, 2NT 18-19, or something in Clubs. He may even have been intending to reverse into diamonds! Given the bidding and my hand, I would be very surprised if partner is unbalanced also, in which case we're probably heading for game/slam in Clubs or a Major.

I want a bid that is....

a. Forcing

b. Best describes what I've got, while still catering for a Club rebid (but, make my Kxx in Clubs the same in Diamonds, and my hand is greatly reduced in value)

c. Most important of all....takes up NO space, something which is now at a premium. If I bid one major, I may not be able to show the other.

For these reasons, I double.

D.

[mikeh]

I wish I had a complete answer for what happened and some clear way of demonstrating the best approach. But I don't. I was told that LHO bounces to 5D over either double or 3S, and that partner passes.

When given the hand, I choose 6H, with no strong conviction. I was told that partner bids 7C, but I am not sure if that was what really happened or, indeed, if this was a hand that was from actual play. If the opps bid 7D, the real question is whether partner can/should bid 7H with Qx AQ xx AQJ10xxx. I like to think that the 6H call ought to persuade him to do so, but maybe I am being influenced by knowing the hands.

[Dinarius]

mikeh, on 2015-July-07, 06:18, said:

I wish I had a complete answer for what happened and some clear way of demonstrating the best approach. But I don't. I was told that LHO bounces to 5D over either double or 3S, and that partner passes.

Thanks for the clarification. So, my wild theory about partner intending to reverse into diamonds is dead if LHO bounces into 5D. Partner has a couple of diamonds at most.

Partner's rebid was now either 1NT/15-17 (possible in view of his pass of 5 Diamonds after my Double), 2NT/18-19 (unlikely, in my view), or a Club hand - more likely now that we're at the 5 Diamond level and at least three of the four hands are looking distributional.

So, after I double and LHO bids 5 Diamonds and it comes back around to me; partner has ignored my offer of a major (admittedly, he doesn't know I'm 5/5 - but, if Bridge bidding was a perfect science, none of us would be playing the game. It would be dead boring!) so, with my Kxx in Clubs, and given the vulnerability, I'm bidding 6 Clubs.

As I said before, if we've missed something better, then the pre-empt has done its job and we put it down to experience.

With my monster, opposite an opening hand, 6 Clubs has to be a very good bet. On the other hand, doubling a non-vul 5 Diamonds will be the losing action most of the time, in my view.

D.

[ycos]

The problem is not the 5♦ bid from opp, is the 6♦ bid or even 7♦(lol).

4♦ - majors , and cue again even after 5♦ or bid 6♥ after 6♦.

5♦ - exclusion blackwood, can be good but you have problems after 6♦ from W.