[diana_eva]

2/1 std jacoby where 3x is shortness, 4H is min hand. TM, IMPs

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Feel free to comment that you wouldn't open this load of trash

[Phil]

Uh 3♣? Opening is obvious unless you used to be the chairman of a very large investment bank.

I know the hand.

[eagles123]

Spoiler

funny board 2s= byw on one table 6h-3 byn on the other

fwiw i think 3c is obvious

[steve2005]

If your going to open that type I hand and I think you should. You have to make the system bid 3♣. Yes your a min hcp but you have nothing to be ashamed of your hand with a ♥ fit. This doesn't mean partner should immediately drag to 6♥. You have lost of room to show controls etc below 4♥ to make an intelligent decision about slam.

[PhantomSac]

diana_eva, on 2015-June-27, 14:36, said:

2/1 std jacoby where 3x is shortness, 4H is min hand without shortness

FYP

[gszes]

I am not in love with that opening hand but partnership agreement is always important. If the 1H bid falls within the parameters of a normal bid then by all means show the short club and if your partnership has no method on how to proceed after 3c <silently trials off>

[heyrocky]

I see I am the only one that bid 4♥, so everyone else, you now have a target. Guess I have seen too many partners take 3♣ bids too seriously.

[mr1303]

It's like opening a good 14 count 1NT and then denying a 4 card major in response to Stayman. Partner asked if you have shortage so you show it.

[silvr bull]

diana_eva, on 2015-June-27, 14:36, said:

Feel free to comment that you wouldn't open this load of trash

OK. I will boldly go where no one else on the forums will. I would not open that load of trash. It's not that I think opening it is bad, but that I have had many more unfortunate results than good ones after opening a marginal hand with 11 HCP. I can seldom convince my CHO to lower his level of enthusiasm until it is too late. If the hand was QJx AKxxx JTxx x instead, so I would be happy to have the suit led on defense, I would risk a 1H opening, but even then I would not be enthusiastic about it. With AKx QJxxx JTxx x, however, I think risk is greater than reward. My general philosophy is not to ask how MUCH I can bid as opener or responder, but instead to ask first how LITTLE I can bid. I like partner to expect me to have good values, and I like holding extras too. After limiting my hand first, it is easy to bid more later to show values. But when I stretch to bid too high early, I can never tell partner that I may regret it later.

[diana_eva]

PhantomSac, on 2015-June-27, 16:25, said:

diana_eva, on 2015-June-27, 14:36, said:

2/1 std jacoby where 3x is shortness, 4H is min hand without shortness

FYP

Yep that was the debate. So we have agreed now that it's OK to show shortness even with a min hand.

Those who know the hand will know that there were lots more divorce reasons on it, besides my 3C LOL. But anyway, this one is settled - I'll plead guilty to the other counts

[apollo1201]

Having opened, now I have to answer partner's question. With no rebid issues and a QJ9 sequence in the suit, the 1H opening is ok (I even have the 10 of D!). I think my partenr will be more dissapointed by my hiding of the C shortness (answering to a question) than by my opening (exercising my judgment). It is not like if I had opened Qxx KJxxx Qxxx K.

[apollo1201]

Diana, you'll have to post the whole sequence and hands as post-mortem now!

[lycier]

apollo1201, on 2015-June-28, 02:56, said:

Diana, you'll have to post the whole sequence and hands as post-mortem now!

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Hi Diana_eva

Good topic.
First of all,I am very sorry,without your prior consent,I released this hand.I think error is not a simple thing,even not caused by one person.

1- I know both of opener and responder are temporary partners,not regular.
2- There are some issues in standard Jacoby 2nt.

In according to the approach of Audrey Grant (www.AudreyGrant.com),if you directly bid up to 4♥,showing minmum hand without singleton or void.

With this hand,you should rebid 3♣ ,showing singleton or void in clubs because this is likely to be the most useful feature in this hand to help responder decide whether to pursue a slam.
However with this hand,a great pity that the responder can't recognize his hand after 3♣. As we know it is very important to reevaluate after 3♣ showing S/V.In the face of S/V in ♣, responder's ♣K in ♣ suit is wasted point,now actually there are only 11 working points in responder's hand,obviously it is a decreased values.so responder would better jump bid to 4♥,or if play non-serious 3nt,responder can rebid 3nt after 3♠,let opener describe own hand again, this is the last life-saving straw.I am afraid responder think opener might have some extra values especially after cuebid 3♠.

When with this opener's minmum hand with a Ace and a singleton in some side suit,how to handle?
After Jacoby 2nt, opener bid up to game without S/V in the minmum hand while responder have extra values,now how to do next?
It is very difficult to handle by traditional standard Jacoby 2nt. Traditional standard Jacoby 2nt is very rough actually.
World famous USA expert of two over one bidding system,Max Hardy and his partner Jimmy Jacoby,they thought all of disasters of Jacoby 2nt are caused by responder without extra values to be wrongly as a captain ,when no extra values with 12-14hcp ,responder can't afford the unsuccessful failure of imaginative slam.
So Jimmy Jacoby had revised anew Jacoby 2nt before dying,in which it ask responder have to 15+hcp at least with 4-card support.

[diana_eva]

No problem to post the hand, lycier. I didn't because it was really stupid and not worth the full postmortem. I messed up in so many ways that if this weren't my husband we'd probably be discussing attempt of murder. The bidding includes me asking for an undo to correct my accurate keycard response to the wrong one We've both had too much wine and we're usually wise enough to not play together while drinking LOL.

[diana_eva]

lycier, on 2015-June-28, 04:44, said:

...

1- I know both of opener and responder are temporary partners,not regular.
...

Ugh we are regulars, which is why I thought this particular point, of whether showing shortness promises extras or not was worth discussing.

[lycier]

No,I mean that after responder's 2 Notrump call, opener's rebids to Jacoby 2 Notrump are typically "slow-shows - fast denies" (strength),sometimes we are very difficult to say opener showing S/V with minmum hand at three level is correct or wrong if play std Jacoby 2nt.

[WesleyC]

There are lots of simple ways to improve on the basic Jacoby 2NT convention.

One effective method uses the 3C response as an artificial bid to show any minimum hand (with or without a shortage).

After 1M - 2NT - 3C responder will often be able to sign off in 4M, confident that no minimum hand with a shortage will produce slam. This avoids giving away any unnecessary information about opener's shape. If responder does still want to explore slam they can continue with 3D which asks again for shortage.

Hands with extra values and short clubs can either go via 1M - 2NT - 3M, or you could simply keep it natural and make those hands bid 4C.

[lycier]

WesleyC, on 2015-June-28, 05:18, said:

There are lots of simple ways to improve on the basic Jacoby 2NT convention.

One effective method uses the 3C response as an artificial bid to show any minimum hand (with or without a shortage).

After 1M - 2NT - 3C responder will often be able to sign off in 4M, confident that no minimum hand with a shortage will produce slam. This avoids giving away any unnecessary information about opener's shape. If responder does still want to explore slam they can continue with 3D which asks again for shortage.

Hands with extra values and short clubs can either go via 1M - 2NT - 3M, or you could simply keep it natural and make those hands bid 4C.

What you said is just style I play.
Of course,it is well known to all that any improvement on Jacoby 2nt is better than the standard Jacoby 2nt.

[diana_eva]

lycier, on 2015-June-28, 05:26, said:

What you said is just style I play.
Of course,it is well known to all that any improvement on Jacoby 2nt is better than the standard Jacoby 2nt.

TBH I never felt the need to improve std Jacoby, it's not like our bidding judgement has reached the level to finetune so much. Even on this hand, what killed us was not that std jacoby sucks, but my inability to count to 1.

[Jinksy]

PhantomSac, on 2015-June-27, 16:25, said:

FYP

Does this mean you don't think much of Swedish responses (or whatever they're called) - 3C as 'any min', where 3HSN show shortage and nonmin?