[Laird]

Hello All

We seem to be getting side tracked off Polish Club,so I have started new topic ..Precision to help retain some order,,,hope this is ok... but hopefuly there will be more input regarding Polish club but try to reply to appropriate topic site please

John

[Laird]

Flytoox Question

Thanks all for the great discussion from which i learn a lot. Does anyone want to discuss the advantage and disadvantages of Precision? I wonder if today's precision is much different from CCWei's style. I used to play precision. The problem with precision is that when Opp intrude and pd has a weak hand and your hand is not strong enough like 2c opening in standard. So in this case you will be in a bad position without showing your suit at the 1st round. Can anyone tell me what is the countermeasure over opp's intervene?

Hope this is ok

John

[Laird]

Comment by pbleighton

"Re- Precision

I've been playing it a little. An experienced Precision player at my club says that using a strong NT (she actually uses 16-18, most use 15-17) takes the weakest bids out of the 1C opening, and makes rebidding and penalty doubling easier. She says that she doubles for penalties a lot.
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[Laird]

hrothgar comment

"Precision with a 16-18 HCP NT?
Not my cup of tea.

The point of playing a strong club is NOT getting good boards when you open 1C.
Rather, the goal should be to achieve a good result when you open something OTHER than 1C.

The Precision style 1D opening is bad enough without forcing it to show
10-15 HCP balanced."

[Laird]

csdenmark input

"Quote from: flytoox on Today at 04:17:26am
Thanks all for the great discussion from which i learn a lot. Does anyone want to discuss the advantage and disadvantages of Precision? I wonder if today's precision is much different from CCWei's style. I used to play precision. The problem with precision is that when Opp intrude and pd has a weak hand and your hand is not strong enough like 2c opening in standard. So in this case you will be in a bad position without showing your suit at the 1st round. Can anyone tell me what is the countermeasure over opp's intervene?



"Precision and Superprecision bidding" by Giorgio Belladonna and Benito Garozzo, page 157-161.

Summary here:
1C-DBL
Pass=0-5HcP
1D=6-7HcP
Suit=8-13HcP,5+cd
RDBL=8-13HcP,bal
1NT=14+HcP
3'/4'=preempt

1C-overcall(1-force)
Pass=0-6HcP
DBL=7+HcP,0-2 Ctrl
1HS=8+HcP,5+cd
1NT=3 Ctrl,stop opps
2C=3 Ctrl, No stop
2D=4 Ctrl
2HS=3-7HcP,6cd,2 topH
2NT=5+ Ctrl
3CD=6cd,K+Q or A+Q
3HS=7cd,K+Q
3NT=Solid 6-7cd + side control

1C-overcall(2-force)
Pass=0-6HcP
DBL=7+HcP,0-2 Ctrl
2DHS=3-7HcP,6cd,2 topH
2NT=3 Ctrl incl stop or 4 Ctrl no stop
3CDHS=7cd,K+Q
3NT=Solid 6-7cd + side control
Cue=5+ Ctrl

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[the hog]

Regarding intervention over a big C

When the opponents intervene over a big C, it is crucial to show the 5-8 hands, otherwise you can be pre empted out of the auction.

Workable methods are 1 over 1 bids and cheapest 2 level bids show 5-8 with a 5 card suit.
Xs show 6-8 and a hand that does not have a bid, in other words no decent 5 card suit.

Cues are 8-13, no stopper no Major, 2NT+ = rubensohl.

Over 2 level interference 2N+ should again be rubensohl.

Control showing responses are largely a waste of time - shape is important. There is not much point in knowing your combined control count if you have no idea where to play the contract. Control showing responses work reasonably well in uninterrupted auctions, but these are a rarity these days and thus have been largely abandoned.

Over 2 suited overcalls unanchored (eg H+C or D+S), X = 6-8. Suits are natural 5-8, and The first 2 Xs are t/o and the third is penalties.

Advantages of Precision?

In an uninterrupted auction, (rare) the 1C opening allows a lot or room for bidding development. If you play a version where 1C 1D 1H shows 19+ and is forcing, you get to keep the bidding nice and low on hands where standard and similar systems have to start at a higher level.

When you don't open 1C pd knows you have a hand in the 10-15 range. You can jump to show nice playing strength without resp getting carried away eg
1H 1S 3C/D

If you are so inclined, big C systems readily lend themselves to relays allowing for accurate bidding in uninterrupted auctions.

Some hands are far easier to handle, eg the Bridge World "hand of death"
AQx
AKJTxx
x
xxx
1H 1S - now what?
In 2/1 or sayc or Acol this is nasty - you are too good for 2S, you need a 4th S for 3S and if you bid 3H you risk playing there and missing a decent 4S.
Most Precision players now use 2NT here by opener to show a good 6 card opening and 3 card support for responder. Originally 2NT showed a max opening 15 count; this was a pointless bid to say the least. (Excuse the bad pun).

Disadvantages

The 1C opening is liable to pre emption.

You need a decent structure for your 1D opening, esp if you play that 1D can be 2 or fewer cards.

The 2C opening has always been a bit of a problem and can lead you to losing a M suit fit. Modern versions have switched to 6C rather than 5C+4M OR 6C. Playing a 6 card C suit impacts on a) below, as what do you open with a 3415 shape if you wish your D opening to show 4+ ? (Some players use a 2D or 2H opening to include the 3415 shapes with 3/4 4/3 in Ms and a s/t D. I don't think 2H is mid chart legal in the States, but someone can correct me on this point.

The original 13-15 NT range was a bit odd. Better options are:
a) to play a 12-15 range and pass all flat 11 counts or
to play a 14-16 range and open 1D with 11-13.
Playing method a) means that your 1D opening will be a 4 card suit - usually 5 as with a balanced hand you open 1NT.
Passing flat 11s is not a bad policy anyway. Roy Kerr analysed several 100 hands from the Far East event and it transpired that those opening a Precision 1D on flat 11s ended up losing about 1 Imp on average whenever they did this.

The fact that in the original version you could give a positive and still stop below game was always ill conceived. Far better is to make all positiive responses GF.

The learning factor? Don't really regard this as an adv or disadv. A well constructed 2/1 system has at least as much learning involved.

General Comments

You need a method of limiting hand strength. In the original Italian version you could do this with the Greek asking bids - Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc. As Ben pointed out in an earlier thread these seem to have fallen out of favour for some reason. They worked ok but occasionally you found one fit to the exclusion of another better one elswhere eg playing a slam in a 5-3 S fit rather than a 4-4 D fit, say. Today a more common method is for responder to use the step bid to limit his hand to 9-12, and to bid something else with 13+ eg

1C 1S
2C 2D shows 9-12, nothing to do with Ds. Other bids show 13+

In addition, all of the above points show that you need to discuss these options with your partner, just as you do if you want to play any system seriously. You also need to be aware of the fact that changes that you make to one part of the system may have serious repercussions on other parts.

Ron

[pbleighton]

Ron writes:
"Today a more common method is for responder to use the step bid to limit his hand to 9-12, and to bid something else with 13+ eg

1C 1S
2C 2D shows 9-12, nothing to do with Ds. Other bids show 13+"

I have been wresting with this issue, and the approach you cite is interesting. Questions:

1) Does the step bid exclude bids of suits previously bid by either party? How about NT? What are the step bids in these auctions (opps silent):
a) 1C-1S-1NT
1C-1S-2S
c) 1C-1S-2D

2) When the opener has no convenient rebid, is there a "waiting" bid designated?

3) Does opener use slow arrival to signal reciprical interest in slam, or is there another mechanism?

4) Would you use TAB and CABs in auctions where there is immediate support for responder's suit by the opener?

[the hog]

Peter I personally have not played this method, but from what I have seen:

1) Does the step bid exclude bids of suits previously bid by either party? How about NT? What are the step bids in these auctions (opps silent):
a) 1C-1S-1NT 2C step
1C-1S-2S 2S (single raise) generally played as 16-18, 3 card raise
c) 1C-1S-2D 2H would be the step here

2) When the opener has no convenient rebid, is there a "waiting" bid designated?

Always the step bid

3) Does opener use slow arrival to signal reciprical interest in slam, or is there another mechanism?

Generally yes - fast arrival shows min for the bidding so far

4) Would you use TAB and CABs in auctions where there is immediate support for responder's suit by the opener?

Me personally? - yes, I quite liked them. But TAB seem to have fallen out of favour. - see my answer to 1) b above

[mishovnbg]

Hi friends, all comments and questions are welcome .
[glow=blue,2,300]Precision club[/glow]
Unlike SAYC, Polish club, French five major ... where most of bids and gadgets are standardized, precision club have lot of variants. I will try to explain in this post the reason of same great diversity. For experienced/advanced players - please read Ron's (The_Hog) post in this topic - i agree with all that he wrote there.

General idea of Precision club is VERY limited openings(11-15hcp). The result is opening with 1CL with all other strong hands. It is possible to open 1DI or even Strong pass instead of 1CL and will not change general idea.
Why do you need limited openings, if you can play well with 12-21 opening? For fun ofcourse too ;D. But VERY important is same opening made you "commander" of deal. ( I strongly recommend you to read Robson/Segal book "Partnersip bidding" about wining strategy of such bidding in competition ). "Commander" can make GREAT tactical and bluff bids, like: strong "preempt" raise to 4 level, waiting opponents to bid for dbl them; crazy "preempt" without fear from strong opener; bluffing in suit and close to game; ... If you dont like tactical and bluff bids - DONT play Precision club!!! If you cant use potential of limited openings and receive all negatives from 1CL hcp opening - you will lose much more often, than playing simple SAYC.

Basic Precision ( C.Wei version ):

1CL: 16+hcp, any
1DI: 11-15 hcp, 2+DI, without 5 major, weak NT, 6+CL, 5+CL-4 major
1HE/SP: 11-15hcp, 5+HE/SP
1NT: 13-15hcp, bal
2CL: 11-15hcp, 5+CL-4 major or 6+CL
2DI: 11-15hcp, 4414, 4405, 4-3-1-5/3415 with bad CL, singleton or void DI
2HE/SP: weak 2
2NT: 22-23hcp, bal

Notes:
- Strong jump shifts to 1DI/HE/SP opening: 16+hcp, slam interest
- 1DI-2DI response is natural 2/1 forcing 1 round
- 1CL-1DI response except normal negative 0-7hcp may include "impossible negative": 8+hcp, 4441 any singleton

Advantages:
1CL opening allow low level auction and lead to easy bidding of games and enough space to investigate slams.
Limited 11-15 opening often lead to quick arrival to game, hard for defence due to lack of information.
Reverses of limited opener is distributional only and is possible to reach games and slams with few hcp, based on good placement of it.
Disadvantages:
1CL is often target of special defence like multi bids, bluffs and crazy preempts. This lead to unpredictable result for both sides, but more often lose 1CL opener, because he have statistical game on his line.
1DI with 2-3 cards sometimes lead to bad contracts in DI.
2CL opening lose much bidding space and missing game in major is possible, if responder dont have enough hcp to bid.

[glow=blue,2,300]Versions - HCP limits[/glow]
Generally 2 types:

1. Change 1NT to 15-17(14-16)hcp. 1DI opening include 11-14 hcp, bal. Main idea is to make 1CL opening stronger, easy to rebid in competition too. Some of versions extend limit of 1DI opening ( sometimes 1HE/1SP too ) to 17hcp. Some of them open 1DI even with void. Example of same version is "Power Precision" - Sontag and Weischel. Most popular in Bulgaria is similar version with 2DI multi and 2HE/SP dutch.
Result -> 1CL opening is better, but 1DI opening is worse. Instead of 1 bad opening - 1CL you have already 2 - 1CL and 1DI.

2. Change limits from 11-15 to (8)9-14(15). Reason is to open more often, giving information to partner early and increase chances for him to make right decision. Example of same version is "MOSCITO", can ask Ron (The_Hog) or Richard (hrothgar) about.
Result -> 1CL remain vulnerable; extend of limits decrease possibility of quick arrival and tactical bids.

[glow=blue,2,300]Versions - Opening suits[/glow]
1. Change 1DI to natural 4+ card ( Goren Precision). Include nicely DI suit in battle.
Result -> With often 11-12hcp, bal you cant open.

2. Change 2DI to 2HE. For opponents are more difficulte to compete or dbl, because 2HE often can be passed unlike 2DI. 2DI is free for multi ( weak 2 in any major ), Wilkosz ( weak 5+-5+ with at least 1 major ), Ekren ( weak 4+-4+ )...
2SP ( with multi 2DI ) can be used for any good pre-empt to 3 level, while direct pre-empts can be bad... One of best bulgarian experts - Boian ( he often play in BBO - nick PPilot ) play similar with 9-14hcp limits and 1DI 4+ cards.
Result -> May be best version of Precision and relative easy to play.

3. Change 1DI to 0 or 1+ cards. Reason is to free 2DI bid, because it rare happen.
Result -> 1DI bid include lot of variants, with 5+CL bad suit too, come very often and is very hard for bidding.

4. Change 1 major opening to 4+ cards ( MOSCITO ). Reason is 4 cards in major come more often than 5. You can find 4-4 major fit quickly unlike natural system. Opponents must overcall at 2 level unlike after natural 1CL/1DI.
Result -> You lose quick raise with 3 cards of 5 major opening. Your partner also must bid at 2 level. Sometimes cant stop at good 1NT contract.

[glow=blue,2,300]Versions - Responses and rebids[/glow]

1. Relay responses to limited openings or to responses of 1CL opening. Reason is that opener ( responder to 1CL ) already show some distribution and hcp limit and is more easy, if he continue to show, while responder just ask for it. By absolute information sometimes is possible to reach game or slam, hard or impossible to bid by natural bidding. Relay response also leave lot of responses free for limited bids, best for MP tourney. Lack of information about hand of player, who ask by relays, make difficulte lead.
Result -> If you are computer, best way is to play by relays ;D. Often counting steps answers to realys ( with fingers under the table :'( ) is so tiresome... In contrast to natural bidding ANY LITTLE MISTAKE normally lead to GREAT LOSS. Relays for game contract can lose chance for chocie of game - distribution and hcp limit is not enough, important also is pacement of H in suits. Dummy can be player who ask by relays and defence will be in same case on double dummy.

2. Transfer responses to 1CL opening. Most of time is better to play strong hand as after 1NT (15-18) opening. Also trsansfers allow nice relay step in transfer suit. You can ask Dwayne Hoffman here in forum about Keylime precision.
Result -> Best way for answers to strong hand.

3. Control responses to 1CL opening ( Blue club ). Reason is number of H controls ( A and K ) often limit contract to game or sure slam.
Result -> 1CL opening already lose tempo, because not show any distribution. If responder also not show it, bidding is worse than natural system. Such response is also VERY vulnerable to pre-empt.

4. Asking bids from 1CL opening ( Super precision ). For strong hand is more easy to decide final contract by asking what it need for.
Result -> Bidding space is not enough for distribution, amount and placemant of H - not a perfect world :.

Misho

[csdenmark]

Hi Misho

I think it is a pity you and others are trying to encourage players new to bridge or new to artificial systems to create their own versions.

As I dont play standard classic systems I often look into ID's of several persons. I see around half of your country fellows states PRECISION in their card. Often they add NT=15-17. I have often entered such persons - but they admit they dont know precision. Least of all Power-Precision, which is the only version I know of using NT=15-17.

I am informed of the reason:
Lack of money for the books describing the systems
Lack of skills in english to read the books
Lack of foreign currency for importing the books

The heritage of cold war and iron curtain is still a part of our conditions.

When I enter american players they always knows the real versions, mostly the Goren book and the Goren/Wei book but sometimes Jannersten is the basic.

Those knowing the real champion versions seems to be world class skill players and italians. Not only of Precision but of Blue Team and Roman Club as well. Those few I have met from Eastern Europe able to play the real systems are those travelling abroad for business purposes and they have no problem in english either.

Instead of all those light statements of what to do creating personal versions I would like to see you organizing the hard task to produce a translation into the bulgarian language of one of the real versions/books. I think and hope some of your excellent top-players here on BBO will be ready to help. A chapter or two for each - and your country fellows will have the information they need and really asks for.

If you think it will be helpful in that process you are welcome to translate in my web-sites. I don't claim copyright for such. I have stated no theory - that I assume as well known stuff. Therefore you will still have to do that.

You know of course quite well to create/modify a bridge-system you need skills in theory, analyzing and mathematic. Else you just create some plaything - and I think that is not your aim.

[pbleighton]

Misho writes:
""Commander" can make GREAT tactical and bluff bids, like: strong "preempt" raise to 4 level, waiting opponents to bid for dbl them; crazy "preempt" without fear from strong opener; bluffing in suit and close to game"
I am familiar with the first two, and like them very much. Could you explain the third? Also any other bluffs/tactics specific to systems with limited opening bids?
Also, Ron mentioned the sequence 1H 1S 3C/D. What sort of hand would you do this on - max (14-15) with a decent 4+ card minor?

Peter

[Rado]

Hi Claus and all friends,
We have many translations of different precision Club books distributed among bridge community here at Bulgaria. Unfortunatelly we are still far far aways from official publishing of such books since not enough money for bridge. For the last 30 years we have maybe 15 bridge books published - some of them are good and usefull, others are just before sleep readings LOL. In case nobody invents new systems and all rely just on already published where should the progress come from?

Best regards, Rado

[the hog]

Ron mentioned the sequence 1H 1S 3C/D. What sort of hand would you do this on - max (14-15) with a decent 4+ card minor?

Would be 14/15 5/5, Peter. The more playing strength, the fewer HCP are necessary eg
AJTxxx
void
AQJxxx
x
would also be fine. They key is that resp will not get carried away as you did not open 1C

[mishovnbg]

Quote

Misho writes:
""Commander" can make GREAT tactical and bluff bids, like: strong "preempt" raise to 4 level, waiting opponents to bid for dbl them; crazy "preempt" without fear from strong opener; bluffing in suit and close to game"
I am familiar with the first two, and like them very much. Could you explain the third? Also any other bluffs/tactics specific to systems with limited opening bids?
Also, Ron mentioned the sequence 1H 1S 3C/D. What sort of hand would you do this on - max (14-15) with a decent 4+ card minor?

Peter

Hi Peter, i will answer, but risk of usage is yours ;D

1. About bluffs. FIRST and MOST IMPORTANT RESPONDER IS COMMANDER, else bluffs will cost you lot of loss imp/MP, if not worse - money :'(. This mean ANY game bid from responder is sign off, despite previous bids. It is not so bad as you can think, because often responder have enough information below 3NT to decide best contract. Hard to imagine how many different bluffs i made, but will try to describe some of them.
1.1. 1SP response to 1HE opening is near standard for me without SP when i have great fit in HE. Raise to 4SP from opener is near never happen and over raise to 3 my 3NT or 4HE is for sign off.
1.2. 1NT response with near 0 hacp in favorite vul. I will pass any response, jump one will be with good distribution.
1.3. False 2/1 in minor to play 3NT later. My partner will raise to 4 minor only with wild distribution - almost never. If he do, i will return to major with 2 cards for sign off.
1.4. False raise with 2 cards to 2 level. I prefer to do same with hand suitable for suit contract, because bitter experiencem .
1.5. False game try after major raise - easy and safe - try it. At bulgarian tournament i do opposite - rebluff, because most of players expect i to bluff, lol.
1.6. 3NT - "To play" with suit for pre-empt in favorite vul.

Uff........ May be enough? Remember, partner MUST know RESPONDER IS COMANNDER!!!!!

2. Reverses after limited opening. I will give you several examples instead of describing.
2.1. 1DI-1HE, 2SP: 13-15hcp, at least 6D-4SP, hcp are in long suits
2.2. 1DI-1HE/SP, 2NT: 13-15hcp, 6+DI, 6 direct tricks on NT
2.3. 1HE-1SP, 3CL: 13-15hcp, 5+-5+ hcp in long suits
2.4. 1SP-2CL, 3DI: 13-15hcp, 5+-5+ hcp in long suits

Misho

[inquiry]

Main Features

The main feature of precision is that all opening bids EXCEPT 1CLUB are strickly limited (2NT is a big hand, but of course, it is also limited). This simplifies the great majority of the auctions.

You should be more leary of overcalling against a precision 1H or 1S opening bid than a standard american bid, because the hand is so limited, they are more likely to take a swing at you. If you think this is a paradox (since the 1H/1S bidder playing standard can be stronger) you misunderstand an important priniciple.

Advantages

Easier to doulbe the opponents on part score
All non-I club auctions are very simple (in principle), and it is much easier to describe your range after a precision 1H than say a standard american 1H.

It is easlier in someways than polish 1C, since the 1C there can be weak or strong.

Disadvantages

After 1C opening bid, if the opponents can make an overcall, and if they find a fit, the bidding will can get very high before you have a chance to describe your distribution or stregth.

Need a treatment for the dreaded 4-4-1-4 hand as opener with an opening count, or a positive hand opposite a 1CLUB opening bid.

If you play precsion, you had best work out your agreements about auctions involving opponents actions after your 1Club opening bid...because the modern style is to BID as the opponents rather than pass.

Other Notes

15-17 or 16-18 1NT bids make little systemic sense to me. The original 13-15 1NT lead to a lot of off shaped 1D-1M-1NT rebids, and quesitons about was this 11-12? of something slightly better without a fit. Two solutions are a very weak notrump (11-12/13) with the 1NT rebid showing a better hand, or even lowering the balanced range for 1C to 15 for balanced hands only, so 1C-1any-1NT shows 15 to 17, and opening 1NT with a good 11 to 14.

As far as the superprecision asking bids, I actually am very fond of them. But as I noted, I said they have fallen out of favor. No doubt the reason is most players never meet an asking bid they didn't want to use. My precision auctions frequently go...
1C-1H
3H or

1C-1S
2NT

specifically to prevent using the gamma or beta asking bid. But I have had partners use the trump asking bid (1c-1H-2H) when holding a singleton in my suit. This kind of abuse leads to tons of bad results.

I think the modern style adapting 1H response on 1C-1D-1H to be a transfer or to show big balanced hand or hearts, is a reasonable improvement.

[mikestar]

Some thoughts on Precision:

1) 1C is vulnerable to preemption. It is not an advantage to bid it as often as possible. Increase the minimum count to 17 and be strict about it. Too many Precision players open all 16 counts (even AQxx QJxx QJ KJx) and upgrade mediocre 5-5 15 counts.

2) Use a method of coping with intervention over 1CL that is geared towards getting some penalties when the opponents get out of line. They are going to fix us sometimes and we've got to get them back. I particularly like the card showing double (5 to a bad 8, fairly balanced). This works especially well against destructive interventions that are not in accord with LOTT, for example the popular method of bidding 1S on all weak hands that don't have another bid regardless of spade length.

3) Forget about relays--they don't come up often enough against aggressive intervention. Concentrate on item 2.

4) 1DI must be natural--we already have problems with 1C (preemption) and 2C (self-premption). 4-4-1-4 is rare--pass a minimum and open 1HE with a sound opening (13-16).

5) 2CL must be sound, about 13-16.

6) The above considerations suggest a 13-16 range for 1NT.

7) Learn to pass 12 counts without hesistatiton if they can't open 1 of a suit. Sometimes you'll miss something, but sometimes the enemy will get too high and you will nail them.

[hrothgar]

Incredible! I disagree with almost everything posted here:

1) 1C is vulnerable to preemption. It is not an advantage to bid it as often as possible. Increase the minimum count to 17 and be strict about it. Too many Precision players open all 16 counts (even AQxx QJxx QJ KJx) and upgrade mediocre 5-5 15 counts.

I readily admit that strong club openings are dreadful, however, the added accuracy of the limited opening bids more than compensates. I happily open 95% of my 15 counts with a strong club, and have been known to bid the same with an exception 13 count.

3) Forget about relays--they don't come up often enough against aggressive intervention.

Relays are essential for a well designed strong club system. However, it is essential to understand the purpose of relays: Relays are a tool that allow us more precision in designing other portions of our constructive response structure. If the majority of game forcing/game invitational hands can be bid using a relay, we can design extremely accurate structures for part score bidding. Believe me when I say that this is essential opposite "light" opening bids.

5) 2CL must be sound, about 13-16.

2C can and should use the same opening range as the rest of you constructive openings. What is critical is ensuring that the opening promises 6+ Clubs

7) Learn to pass 12 counts without hesistatiton if they can't open 1 of a suit. Sometimes you'll miss something, but sometimes the enemy will get too high and you will nail them.

BID! BID! BID! You are not putting up with crappy results from your strong club in order to pass.

[the hog]

Needless to say I agree with all of Richard's points.

Re the 2C opening, I would lower it down to about 9-14, even playing standard precision. This is pretty much the norm amongst pairs playing a strong C system these days.

Re sound openings: the whole point of playing this style is so that you can open hands that others won't open.

Interesting post- De gustibus non est disputandum.

[mikestar]

I am talking about Precision as taught by Wei and Goren with some modifications I have found desirable. An expert may well be better served by an aggressive RM type Precision or even better yet by Moscito or a Polish Club type system. But a beginner/intermediate won't be.

I also don't think that the purpose of Precision is to open hands that SAYC players pass--it is to get better results on the hands we bid. Precision is clearly superior with the Bridge World Hand of Death and its relatives. It is good with shapely 15's and 16's and good 14's. To my mind, an auction like 1SP - 1NT - 3CL showing shape but limited HCP is Precision's distinctive virtue.

Re 2CL I'd love to limit this to a 6 card suit, but this imposes too much distortion on the rest of the system. The first time a beginning Precision player hears 1DI - 3DI when he just opened with 4-4-0-5 will drive him back to SAYC. The old style Precision 2DI is better, but hard to handle if it includes 5-4-3-1 shapes.

Now some of these problems go away if we open 4 card majors regularly, but then we aren't playing Precision: it's a different system*.

In fact, Precision as described by by the last two posts sounds to me more like Moscito--which is a fine system for experienced players but I wouldn't dream of teaching to an intermediate player wanting to branch out from Standard.

In short, I believe a somewhat conservative Precision is a good first non-standard system.


(* Note that opening 1HE on exactly 4-4-1-4 is uncommon enough that it really doesn't cause much distortion in major suit auctions: the 4M-5CL hands are much more common.)

[bearmum]

Precision does NOT play 1NT as anything but 13-15

AND some Precision styles forbid 2 4 card majors too

Quote

Comment by pbleighton

"Re- Precision

I've been playing it a little. An experienced Precision player at my club says that using a strong NT (she actually uses 16-18, most use 15-17) takes the weakest bids out of the 1C opening, and makes rebidding and penalty doubling easier. She says that she doubles for penalties a lot.
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