[dickiegera]

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You open this 1♠.

How do you continue?

#1 if partner bids 2♥?
#2 if partner bids 2♦?
#3 if LHO bids 2♥ and it passes back to you?
#4 if LHO bids 2♦ and it passes back to you?

Many are of the opinion that 3♣ would show a big hand in this bidding

Opinions please
Thank you

[mikeh]

Traditional bidding methods in a non-strong club method, in NA, require a 2S rebid over partner's 2/1 red suit response. Most 2/1 players use the same treatment, although some do not and consider showing pattern to be more important.

I am one of those who require about an ace more than a reasonable minimum opening bid for a 3C rebid.

If playing standard American, where a 2/1 response could be a 10 count, the reason for the extra value requirement is that it is normal for 3C to be forcing to game, and thus one has to have significant extras, in order to force to game opposite a potentially misfitting 10 count.

It has to be gf since there is so little bidding space for suit agreement. I leave it to the reader to figure out the reasoning here.

When playing 2/1 GF methods, the need to have extras in order to create the gf are irrelevant, since responder has created a force already, which is why some do not promise extras.

However, one of the weaknesses of 2/1 GF is the difficulties that arise when both players have about 16 hcp and the partnership is in the slam zone. 16 isn't enough for responder to push beyond game, given that opener could have, say, 11 or so. So over a 3C rebid that is merely shape-showing, responder, with extras but not a monster, has to just bid game all too often. Opener, with extras, cannot tell if responder has a minimum or extras, so is facing the same problem.

Using 3C to show significant extras with opener makes it are for responder, with a good hand, to push beyond game.

Btw, while the modern method is, for most, to open 1S on these hands, there are still some players who think that 1C is better on hands that cannot afford to rebid 3C. I play with one of these players, a multiple national champion. I don't like the style, but in fairness, it seems to work well.

[aguahombre]

dickiegera, on 2015-June-20, 06:47, said:

#1 if partner bids 2♥?
#2 if partner bids 2♦?
#3 if LHO bids 2♥ and it passes back to you?
#4 if LHO bids 2♦ and it passes back to you?

Many are of the opinion that 3♣ would show a big hand in this bidding

1)2♠
2)2♠
These are ugly.

3) Double
4) Pass...I don't expect this to be a popular choice, but I smell a rat. Either they are missing a good heart fit or partner is very weak. I don't think I want to open this back up.

Yes, 3♣ would be treated by many as a better trick-taker when rebidding after 2/1; this is a style choice. But, when rebalancing, I believe it had better be the nuts.

[ggwhiz]

Playing 2/1 we specifically agreed to bid 3♣ on 1. and 2. but would bid 2♠ if you reversed the black suits on the premise that if you don't have 6 of them the suit quality should be playable opposite 2 small in a pinch. Bidding 2♠ on that suit wasn't working for us.

Might scramble a bit on 1. but on 2. this min point count likely punches above its weight.

I'm with the Aquadude on 3. and 4.

[rmnka447]

I'm bidding 2 ♠ over partner's 2/1 response whether it's a GF or simply Standard 2/1 bid. Put me down as one of those dinosaurs who believes that 3 ♣ should show extras.

Over LHO's 2 ♥ or 2 ♦, I double.

[mike777]

another possible option with 5-5 is to open 1c with a minimum hand and 1s with extras. of course this needs to be an agreement with partner.
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as others point out it is possible to bid 3c here after 2d or 2h gf. pard assumes you have a minimum hand. the problem hand is one in the range of 14-16

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2015-June-21, 15:44, said:

another possible option with 5-5 is to open 1c with a minimum hand and 1s with extras. of course this needs to be an agreement with partner.
--

as others point out it is possible to bid 3c here after 2d or 2h gf. pard assumes you have a minimum hand. the problem hand is one in the range of 14-16

Opening 1♣ with the minimum 5-5's does eliminate the need to default rebid 2S in this one case (where it might not matter anyway). but It carries much too high a price.

It allows cheap red suit overcalls on precisely the hands where you don't want that. Also, on unimpeded or competitive auctions you might never convince partner you actually hold 5 spades.

There was a thread recently on 4SF situations where the auction has proceeded:

1C-1H
1S-2D
?...Now 2S is needed for a default without heart support, without six clubs, and without a Diamond stopper.

And if your minimum opener is 5-5 in clubs and hearts or Diamonds and hearts, the idea is even uglier.

[mike777]

aguahombre, on 2015-June-21, 16:27, said:

Opening 1♣ with the minimum 5-5's does eliminate the need to default rebid 2S in this one case (where it might not matter anyway). but It carries much too high a price.

It allows cheap red suit overcalls on precisely the hands where you don't want that. Also, on unimpeded or competitive auctions you might never convince partner you actually hold 5 spades.

There was a thread recently on 4SF situations where the auction has proceeded:

1C-1H
1S-2D
?...Now 2S is needed for a default without heart support, without six clubs, and without a Diamond stopper.

And if your minimum opener is 5-5 in clubs and hearts or Diamonds and hearts, the idea is even uglier.

good points, one does need to be aware of these issues and choose. All of which help make bridge a fascinating game.

At the risk of getting yelled at one possible solution to your problem hand is to pass, not open the hand or at least not open it in first or second seat.

I note in the OP example we open 1c and rebid 2s in your example of 4sf or playing a different style we open 1s and rebid 3c and live with the problem two suited hands in the rough range of 14-16

I do think most forum posters prefer the 1s then 2s route showing 5s and a minimum.

[the_clown]

3♣, 3♣, Double and Pass