I am interested in whether you think a 4S call by me in the pass out seat is suicidal or obvious, or somewhere in between.
4H on my left, teo passes Do I or don't I
#1
Posted 2015-June-12, 07:05
I am interested in whether you think a 4S call by me in the pass out seat is suicidal or obvious, or somewhere in between.
#2
Posted 2015-June-12, 07:22
kenberg, on 2015-June-12, 07:05, said:
All white at matchpoints .. can't we have both?
-gwnn
#3
Posted 2015-June-12, 07:43
billw55, on 2015-June-12, 07:22, said:
As in "obviously suicidal'?
#4
Posted 2015-June-12, 08:47
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#5
Posted 2015-June-12, 08:54
#6
Posted 2015-June-12, 09:04
If I think a bid is totally clear cut I make it, and I accpet a ruling that it is not as clear cut as I thought. Here it wasn't even close to clear cut imo so of course I passed and of course it would have made 4S. We beat 4H a trick, not a disaster, but below average.
I still am not sure what I would have done had I felt free to make the call of my choice. My guess is that I would have passed. Anyway I was pretty sure that 4S wasn't obvious. Thanks for the confirmation.
#7
Posted 2015-June-12, 09:51
#8
Posted 2015-June-12, 11:11
WesleyC, on 2015-June-12, 09:51, said:
It is hell of a logical alternative. Not everybody allows themselves to be dragged by opponents. I would probably bid 4♠ myself w/o UI, but saying that it is obvious is misguided imo. Pd may have a lot of hearts. And even if you catch some minor hcps to cover your minor losers, they will be in front of the guy (E) who is likely to hold them as well.
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"
"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."
#9
Posted 2015-June-12, 11:42
We tend to not do very well in long KO matches when the opponents find this out early.
What is baby oil made of?
#11
Posted 2015-June-12, 13:56
#13
Posted 2015-June-12, 14:24
I'll never be sure what I would have done w/o the hitch, but anyway having some votes for and some against matches pretty well with the way I thought of it.
#14
Posted 2015-June-12, 15:48
MrAce, on 2015-June-12, 11:11, said:
I don't think anyone denies 4♠ can work out very badly. But when someone says it's not a logical alternative, I just interpret it as it's not a logical alternative for them because they know they would always do it. Of course I'm not saying that argument would stand up in committee.
#15
Posted 2015-June-12, 16:42
#16
Posted 2015-June-12, 19:58
gszes, on 2015-June-12, 16:42, said:
My thinking in this case was that I couldn't bid, even if I wanted to. Mr.Ace said "I think it [a 4S call] is neither suicidal nor obvious." which is how I saw it and I think that's enough to mean I can't do it. Another way to say it: Given the glitch, I had more confidence than before that 4S would make.
Here is something that makes a difference to me, although I don't think it makes a difference in the committee rulings: In this case, the problem was self-inflicted. I am not on any campaign about pard, these things happen. But had he taken a little more care, I would not have had a problem. The time for thought did not cause a problem, we get time to think after a 4H opening whether or not a skip bid is announced, in fact I think we are supposed to take time to think whether or not a skip bid is announced. But his manner of bidding did cause a problem.
That's different from some complex auction that just naturally will require thought. Sometimes there is simply no way to bid in tempo unless you just do it and hope you have done it right. I am more sympathetic to those cases.
#17
Posted 2015-June-12, 20:19
While I expect values across I don't expect a lot of spades.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
#18
Posted 2015-June-13, 00:42
MrAce, on 2015-June-12, 11:11, said:
The reason I don't think pass is a logical alternative is that we have a strong 6c spade suit and a void in the opponents suit. Partner is marked with heart length so they can have considerable values (likely in the minors) and be unable to act, especially if they have a shortage in a side suit. I expect 4S will make often enough to justify bidding it for that reason alone. However bidding 4S has even more ways to win because it might also be a profitable save, or not get doubled, or push the opponents to the 5 level, or the field is making +140 our way so +50 is already a bad score, or partner leads a minor and blows a trick against 4H for -480 vs -450 etc....
Hence my conclusion that defending 4H on this hand isn't a logical alternative which is how I comment if polled by a director.
#19
Posted 2015-June-13, 01:12
gszes, on 2015-June-12, 16:42, said:
The definition a logical alternative is an "action, among the class of players in question and using the methods of the partnership, that would be given serious consideration by a significant proportion of such players, of whom it is judged some might select it."
However there isn't any consensus about exactly what quantity "significant" or "some" represent. In a practical sense the director would poll a handful of players of an appropriate level and make their decision based on that.
The part of the rule that most people misunderstand, is that simply giving consideration to another call isn't enough. Some of your peers must actually choose an action as their first choice for it to be a logical alternative.