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Opening a 22pt hand at the four level

#21 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 10:30

 ezyang, on 2015-May-21, 10:26, said:

On the actual table, your partner held:

Qxxx x Tx QJxxxx

Slam works on a (working) finesse.

Fortunately, partner balanced after your obvious pass, right? ;)

Rik
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#22 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 10:40

 Trinidad, on 2015-May-21, 10:30, said:

Fortunately, partner balanced after your obvious pass, right? ;)

Rik


Just balanced? Weak. Partner obviously jumped to 6S ;)
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#23 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 10:51

 diana_eva, on 2015-May-21, 10:19, said:

Yes. Double is a reasonable option. I personally would double, but I get these doubles wrong too many times, so I refrained from arguing in favor of X because I do not know what's best.

If it were such a clear call, the hand wouldn't have been posted at all.


I agree that double could be a reasonable call but without a solid agreement with partner double has lots of risk. For example, is partner forced to bid again over 5D when partner pulls the 5C bid? Will partner know to correct to spades with equal length? Should he rebid a 6 card club suit? How would he know the relative lengths of the spades and diamonds?

These questions always seem to have two answers: the real and the right. The right is the answer that assumes a perfect partnership; the real represents what we should bid most of the time under most circumstances. For me and my game, I have to keep it real.
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#24 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 12:20

Anyway...back to the question Ezyang posed...what to bid? Both sides vulnerable, a 3♥first-position opener raised to 4♥, my question would be what sort of hand does the 4♥ bidder have? With a total bust, and a shapely hand and a ♥ fit, wouldn't responder be making life a bit more difficult by bidding 5♥ (we assume that is a pre-emptive raise rather than a slam try) so the 4♥ bid is based on shape, some values and a ♥ fit, which basically leaves your partner with nothing more than a near Yarborough and some shape too.

You have a good 5 card ♠ suit, first round control of ♥ (that's important) and a good hand. X throws the ball into partner's court - and more often than not he's going to respond 5♣. Slam may be there but 4♠ just seems the most sensible bid available.
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#25 User is offline   ArtK78 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 12:55

 The_Badger, on 2015-May-21, 12:20, said:

Anyway...back to the question Ezyang posed...what to bid? Both sides vulnerable, a 3♥first-position opener raised to 4♥, my question would be what sort of hand does the 4♥ bidder have? With a total bust, and a shapely hand and a ♥ fit, wouldn't responder be making life a bit more difficult by bidding 5♥ (we assume that is a pre-emptive raise rather than a slam try) so the 4♥ bid is based on shape, some values and a ♥ fit, which basically leaves your partner with nothing more than a near Yarborough and some shape too.

You have a good 5 card ♠ suit, first round control of ♥ (that's important) and a good hand. X throws the ball into partner's court - and more often than not he's going to respond 5♣. Slam may be there but 4♠ just seems the most sensible bid available.

Both sides are vulnerable. That might inhibit East from jumping to 5♥.
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#26 User is offline   daffydoc 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 13:47

Is someone seriously suggesting a pass with this hand? 6 or even 7 is not out of the question - however preempts do work, I would call 4s and think similar problems would arise at the other table. daffy
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#27 User is offline   zillahandp 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 16:51

Another no brainer 4s
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#28 User is offline   case_no_6 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 20:46

 diana_eva, on 2015-May-21, 10:19, said:

Yes. Double is a reasonable option. I personally would double, but I get these doubles wrong too many times, so I refrained from arguing in favor of X because I do not know what's best.

If it were such a clear call, the hand wouldn't have been posted at all.



I disagree that double is a reasonable option. What will you do if/when partner bids 5C? It is insane to continue with 5S when 4S was not even close to a lock to make. Surely it is best (percentage-wise) to bid your 5 card suit while you can at the game level instead of fumbling about looking for a fit that may not exist at the 5 level.
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#29 User is offline   krhorneman 

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Posted 2015-May-21, 23:15

4♠. I do need pard to have several cover cards for slam to make, since it isn't clear he has a ♥ singleton yet. I didn't see the vulnerability, and it has some effect on my bid here. Red on White, pard will know I have a real hand for this. White on red, I should double, as I could bid 4♠ on many much weaker hands.
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#30 User is offline   CONDROZ 

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Posted 2015-May-22, 01:15

5 hearts and 6 diamonds over 6 clubs ... I love fear and hate to get robbed
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#31 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-May-22, 10:54

On the actual hand, I like double, but maybe that's related to my sig - I wouldn't expect to find slam in a million years if I bid 4♠ on this.

Meanwhile, if P has a balanced hand with a handful of points, we probably do almost as well in expectation defending as playing. If he pulls to 5♣, I expect him to have enough clubs that we've got a reasonable chance of making it. If he bids either of the other suits, I'll raise him a level.
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#32 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2015-May-22, 16:05

The off topic replies were generating too many reports so I split those to a separate thread in the Water Cooler here.

#33 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2015-May-23, 15:50

 diana_eva, on 2015-May-22, 16:05, said:

The off topic replies were generating too many reports so I split those to a separate thread in the Water Cooler here.

Reports? As in, people complaining about the posts? Does this happen often?
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#34 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2015-May-23, 16:27

 billw55, on 2015-May-23, 15:50, said:

Reports? As in, people complaining about the posts? Does this happen often?


People complaining about other people's attitude :) No, it doesn't happen often.

#35 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2015-May-23, 16:42

FWIW I gave the hands to robots. Was curious what North wd bid, clubs or spades:


#36 User is offline   kuhchung 

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Posted 2015-May-23, 18:42

Nice work GIB.
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#37 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2015-May-25, 16:55

At imps, one might try 5♥. Shows 5 ♠ and a minor and gets you to 6 when it is right. 4♠ and dbl are both okay but hard to handle.
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#38 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-25, 19:52

This is a clear DBL for me. But I do not blame 4♠ ers. It all depends on what DBL would mean for them.
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#39 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 13:05

 MrAce, on 2015-May-25, 19:52, said:

This is a clear DBL for me.


How will you continue if P bids 4♠?
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#40 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2015-May-26, 13:44

 Jinksy, on 2015-May-26, 13:05, said:

How will you continue if P bids 4♠?


5♥
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