[ArtK78]

 echo25, on 2015-May-01, 00:30, said:

1!c-1!s-2!s-2NT (relay, asking other 4)-3!c (4!c)-3!d (values)-3!s (points in spades)-4!c (cue bi)-4!s-pass...

I play Polish Club. In SAYC or other better minor system it may be better to play 2NT as asking singleton relay. Still, further bids are the same.

This forum is titled "Natural Bidding." So while your methods may be good, they are not appropriate for this thread.

[helene_t]

Keithhus, do you really mean that for example
(3♠)-dbl-(pass)-4♣
is gerber, so with
♠432
♥432
♦432
♣5432
you would have to bid 5♣ in response to partner's double?

[fourdad]

 manudude03, on 2015-April-30, 20:41, said:

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

---

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

In either scenario- 1C-1S-2S-6S....the N hand values at 20 points, why mess around and give the opps info?

If you want to use gerber, make it only after the LAST NT and never when clubs have bid bid natuarlly twice in the auction.

[helene_t]

 fourdad, on 2015-May-01, 06:14, said:

In either scenario- 1C-1S-2S-6S....the N hand values at 20 points, why mess around and give the opps info?

With South's clubs/hearts swapped the slam is not great against poor defenders and almost hopeless against good defenders. You need to avoid the club lead AND you need East to hold the ace of clubs. Even then, a clever East can beat you by ducking the first club trick. Unless East has ace-doubleton (or singleton).

[daffydoc]

If you want to improve your slam bidding, agree to play NO ace asking bids for a period of time( one month to one year), you will be surprised how much better your general slam bidding becomes when you consider what partner has actually shown rather than thinking that aces are the only requirement to make slam. daffydoc

[diana_eva]

I have a lot of sympathy for the proposed method, to be honest. I started out with 4C always Gerber for simplicity and for a real beginner that was indeed super easy to understand and to follow. In my beginner years I simply did not know what to do with a big hand. So many continuations, what's forcing? Wait, is that natural? Why is my partner jumping? etc. I passed many frustrated partners in cue-bids, and raised splinters to slams.

Problem is, as others pointed out, no matter what you tell your partners everyone else will NOT play this way, and you will eventually need to learn the correct way to play these two conventions. Now that you are considering making a change maybe it would be better to switch to: "let's play Gerber the way everyone else does" with 4NT always Blackwood. Then, step 2: Let's play 4NT like everyone else does.

This will move you forward rather than hold you back IMO.

[helene_t]

Diana, do you think "4♣ is always Gerber" is easier for beginners to remember than "4♣ is always natural"? If so, Is it because it is unclear whether 4♣ is forcing or not? If so, I suppose the rule could be "4 of a minor is always natural and forcing".

[diana_eva]

 helene_t, on 2015-May-01, 08:24, said:

Diana, do you think "4♣ is always Gerber" is easier for beginners to remember than "4♣ is always natural"? If so, Is it because it is unclear whether 4♣ is forcing or not? If so, I suppose the rule could be "4 of a minor is always natural and forcing".

It's easy to remember because it is always the same thing. And it's useful because it allows ace asking at low level. Often, a beginner will not know whether they want to be in slam or in game with a big hand. If they have enough aces, they will bid slam. If they don't they'll sign off in game. Simple rule of thumb: we have many points (they don't know how many, look at Keith's sequence? Does it give you any idea of who has what? No - all they want is to be in game or slam, depending on how many aces are there). We have this tool that allows us to check aces and not go at the dreaded 5th level.

[diana_eva]

 helene_t, on 2015-May-01, 06:00, said:

Keithhus, do you really mean that for example
(3♠)-dbl-(pass)-4♣
is gerber, so with
♠432
♥432
♦432
♣5432
you would have to bid 5♣ in response to partner's double?

Of course they wouldn't bid 4C or 5C. They have no points, so just pass And on a more serious note, X is probably penalty anyway in that system

[echo25]

It is often more important to know partner's hand distribution than how many aces he has. Sometimes we want to inform our partner about our values in other suit. Not every slam has to be bid via blackwood or gerber. That's why IMHO you shouldn't agree that 4!c/NT are always aces asking. The most known examples when 4NT is not blackwood:
1NT-4NT (inv to 6NT)
After that, the opener can bid his 5 card minor, if he has it, or even nice 4 card suit and you will end with great 6 in minor.
1NT-2!c-2M-4NT (just as above)
1NT-2!d/!h-2!h/!s-4NT (same)

To be honest, I've never used gerber and I don't remember having any problem with that. The major problem is that players overuse blackwood and they don't use other methods, for example cue bids. Bid low and you will get much information about partner's hand.

[keithhus]

 helene_t, on 2015-May-01, 06:00, said:

Keithhus, do you really mean that for example
(3♠)-dbl-(pass)-4♣
is gerber, so with
♠432
♥432
♦432
♣5432
you would have to bid 5♣ in response to partner's double?

Helene, I appreciate there are limitations to my approach, hence why I asked the question, but I felt it would be beneficial in the majority of cases. However, there does seem to be very limited , if any support. I think I need to scrap my current approach and use gerber solely after NT and learn to use control bids, although this requires a partner of similar mind.

Thank you to all respondents. I will study everyone's comments and may revert if I need any clarification. Thanks once again.

[diana_eva]

 keithhus, on 2015-May-01, 11:22, said:

Helene, I appreciate there are limitations to my approach, hence why I asked the question, but I felt it would be beneficial in the majority of cases. However, there does seem to be very limited , if any support. I think I need to scrap my current approach and use gerber solely after NT and learn to use control bids, although this requires a partner of similar mind.

Thank you to all respondents. I will study everyone's comments and may revert if I need any clarification. Thanks once again.

You might also investigate on ways to keep the bidding low before even getting to ace asking. For instance in the example hand that manudude gave earlier, you mentioned a 3S bid to show 6 spades and a strong hand. But that jump eats up a lot of space when a simple 1S is 100% forcing. Then you have a lot of space to find out more about partner's hand before considering slam.

[neufchatel]

Remember; If using Gerber to ask for aces in a suit contract, it must be alerted in ACBL events.

[helene_t]

we are in EBU, not ACBL, and artificial 4-level bids are alertable if an only if they take place in the first round of bidding. It doesn't matter if it is response to a nt or a suit opening, and it doesn't matter if it asks for aces or shows a singleton or show a control or whatever.

[masonbarge]

 keithhus, on 2015-April-30, 05:58, said:

because of some recent experiences, I am thinking of advising my partners that 4 Clubs is always gerber and 4 NT is always Blackwood, regardless of previous bids. Bearing in mind the level I am playing at, do you think this is a sensible approach? Thanks

I would suggest the following starting point with a strange partner:

1. Any 4NT bid over a suit bid by partner is Blackwood.
2. Any 4NT bid over any actual NT bid by partner is quantitative.
3. Any 4♣ bid over any actual NT bid is Gerber. (By "actual NT" I mean a NT bid that suggests partner wants to play in NT, i.e., not Unusual NT. Another example would be 2♣ - 2NT, if you use 2♥ as a negative response and 2NT as a response showing a heart suit. There, although responder says "NT" he is not suggesting that you play in NT but showing a heart suit, i.e, the "actual" bid is hearts - thus, a 4♣ rebid would be natural and a 4NT rebid would be Blackwood.)

4. A 4NT bid over a suit establishes that suit as trump for purposes of RKC, unless another suit has been bid and raised. You have to think ahead here, especially if you play Roman Key Card. A good auction to discuss with partner might be 2♥ - 2NT (for feature, say) - 3♠ - 4NT. This is Blackwood under Rule #1, but would presumably establish hearts as trumps, since responder could have forced with 2♠ under most systems.

You will lose some natural bids with these rules, but unless partner is someone I play with a LOT, and I am sure we are on the same page, I'd rather lose the occasional 4♣ bid than get into a ridiculous slam sequence where one person thinks we are bidding number of Aces, and the other that we are bidding suits or cue bids.

Another lost bid, here, would be the 2♣ - 2NT (heart suit) - 4NT sequence, where opener might very well want to bid a quantitative 4NT. I am going to tell you, unless your bidding is fairly advanced, being rock-solid on whether a bid is ace-asking is worth giving up the quantitative 4NT over a suit bid.

[keithhus]

 Vampyr, on 2015-May-01, 05:10, said:

If this is what you are comfortable with, then continue to play this way. After all, it does not matter what other people say; the real reason to make a change in your system is that you realise that your current methods are inadequate. Then you will consider a change and you will know what improvement you are gaining, you will know what you are giving up in exchange etc. You will own the change.

Right now I am more interested in the 3♠ bid.

Oops, you are right, double jump is weak. Thanks

[keithhus]

 diana_eva, on 2015-May-01, 11:28, said:

You might also investigate on ways to keep the bidding low before even getting to ace asking. For instance in the example hand that manudude gave earlier, you mentioned a 3S bid to show 6 spades and a strong hand. But that jump eats up a lot of space when a simple 1S is 100% forcing. Then you have a lot of space to find out more about partner's hand before considering slam.

Thanks Diana. My response was wrong,. In my system, a double jump is weak showing 7 cards. Should have bid 2 S ( single jump) showing strength (16 pts and 6 cards). Interestingly, most responders show a 1S response! I take your point about maintaining head room.u

[SixOfWands]

There are lots of better slam conventions obviously but I teach my beginners that:

• 4C is Gerber when partner's last bid was in NT
  
• 4NT is Blackwood when partner's last bid was in a suit
  
• 4NT is quantitative when partner's last bid was in NT.

Completely clear and simple.

Also works pretty well because you never want to play in 4C when partner has just bid NT.

[kontoleon]

The positive thing about the 4NT Many times can stops on 5 level.
0 key is 5♣, so if you need at least one more key(you have 3) to score slam is good enought to bet 4NT.

The some thing is with with 5♦ From ♥,♠, is just litle deference things, you stel bet 4NT with hi team points even you have 2 H key or just 1 on S(hopes that totally have at least 3 with team) From this senario why you need low bet, when you try slam?

[kontoleon]

 manudude03, on 2015-April-30, 20:41, said:

Bid these 2 hands (south dealer):

---

Get to 6S? Good. Now bid them with south's hearts and clubs switched.

I am not expert but i personal i just risk the 4nt here if i am N with open hand by dummy, 3 key and singeton C is no big risk here the 4NT.

I cant imagine hand with 12 points that is no enought here from at least 5s...