[Liversidge]

This came up today.
My clubs looked too weak for 2♣. "They" say you should have an SQT of 8 for a 2 level overcall, mine is 6 in Clubs. I did not have 5 spades so could not bid 1♠. I didn't have a stop for 1NT. But with 15 HCP I felt I should be competing. (Vulnerability Red-Red). What is the best response?

---

[1eyedjack]

Double is fine. Partner will stretch to avoid bidding 2D, so if he bids it there is a fair chance of his having 5 of them.

I would not object strongly to 1S. Prefer that to 2C actually.

Depending on how the wind blows, any legal call up to 2C (including pass) may work. But I think X will be the majority choice.

[helene_t]

IMHO the choice is between x and 1♠. Non-vulnerable 2♣ would not be completely crazy, though.

[the_clown]

X>Pass>1♠>2♣

[TMorris]

Double or pass look fine to me. You don't have to bid just because you have points. You can get occasional auctions where pass is right with rather more than 15.

[mike777]

slightly prefer 1s over x but can live with either.

[chasetb]

If we were to overcall 1♠ on 4, this would be the kind of hand and suit to do it on. I slightly prefer X, because if partner bids 2♦ I expect at least 5 of them, and we have two honors! We have two biddable suits, and can easily stop at the two level or 1NT if needed after X. The only time I would bid 2♣ here is at Favorable, because we are throwing out a fit, while not really taking that much space up.

While there are hands with 14-16 HCP with which we would pass rather than overcall/bid, this is NOT one of them, and I'll go so far to say that your EV would be -4 IMPs per board if you Pass here.

I know this also isn't super popular, but this is the kind of hand that Raptor 1NT was made for!

[wank]

making a takeout double is ok with 2 cards in an unbid minor

[NickRW]

As a novice, you can go a long way with pass here. At least partner will learn to trust your overcalls and doubles and auctions where you do have your call will be all the better for it.

Yes, more experienced players will compete with 1♠ or X and, probably more often than not, get away with it. What they're not saying (clearly) is they will also sometimes end up with egg on their face, but they're prepared to live with that risk.

A point to note is that this hand wasn't really worth the 15 points you counted for it when you picked it up as the red jacks look weak and the longest suit is weak. The 1♥ opening has merely confirmed the Jx holding is offensively worthless, so your hand hasn't improved since you first looked at it.

[helene_t]

NickRW, on 2015-April-01, 04:59, said:

As a novice, you can go a long way with pass here.

This is an interesting question: should novices learn the rule "pass if nothing fits?".

In general the answer is no. But after opps open, it has merits. One could, however, argue that pass should have a meaning:
- less than opening strength with no suit biddable at the 1-level, or
- opening strength with 3+ cards in opps suit, no biddable suit, and not sufficient strength/stopper for a 1NT overcall

Then everything, including pass, is misdescription with this hand and you have to pick the smallest lie. Which probably isn't pass in this case.

[NickRW]

Hard cases make bad law they say Helene. I think on balance I'd probably bid 1♠ myself, so I don't follow my own advice obviously. Just sayin' that pass is possibly better than some of you think and certainly, for a novice, pass is better than you guys are suggesting. I'm not trying to suggest that pass is better in some absolute sense - but this is the N+B forum.

[hrothgar]

Obvious 1♠ overcall

[Zelandakh]

As others have pointed out there are 5 candidate calls - Pass, Double, 1♠, 1NT and 2♣. Of those I like 1NT and 2♣ the least and would tend to discount them. The choice between the other 3 is something of a style issue.

The traditional call is pass planning to come in later if it seems like a good idea. This is perfectly playable and a style I even quite like but it is somewhat out of fashion, partly because of the increased danger of late action and also because the standards for actions by the opponents have changed over the years.

Those that play an otherwise traditional structure but feel the need to act immediately are likely to double here. The fact that our doubleton is KJ and in a minor that is the "one-under" suit makes this choice particularly attractive.

A more modern approach is to allow 4 card overcalls on this type of hand. Hrothgar is from that school, hence for him 1♠ is "obvious".

Finally, there are some conventional options. One, Raptor, is very widely played. Raptor uses a 1NT overcall to show a hand with a 4 card major (here obviously spades) and a longer minor. It is not really N/B material but the fact that such a convention exists demonstrates that plenty of very good players consider this a real problem. That in turn suggests you are asking the "right" questions.

As for what I would do? With a random B/I partner I think double is safest. With a good but older player I would tend towards a pass. And with a good, younger player probably 1♠. In other words, I think the best call depends a lot more on expectation than any technical merit of one approach over the other.

[Liversidge]

My partner and I have recently signed up to LoTT and bidding to the level of our fit. It takes a bit of nerve to raise partner's 1♠ overcall to 3♠ with four card support and a bust, but we are getting used to it. Overcalling with a 4 card suit might well work on this hand but night well spook partner on future hands so he won't know whether to trust me.

I hadn't thought about doubling holding a 2 card suit with honours ('rules' for us novices say you should have 3+ card tolerance for the other suits) but I guess the odds are in favour of partner responding in one of my two better suits - most of the time a better outcome than passing and letting Opps make 1♥ or go one off.

[ArtK78]

hrothgar, on 2015-April-01, 05:35, said:

Obvious 1♠ overcall

That is it! End of discussion! Close this thread down!

I would guess from the variety of options presented by others that not everyone agrees with hrothgar.The fact is that I probably do agree with him to overcall 1♠, but I would never take the view that it was "obvious."

[hrothgar]

ArtK78, on 2015-April-01, 16:28, said:

That is it! End of discussion! Close this thread down!

I would guess from the variety of options presented by others that not everyone agrees with hrothgar.The fact is that I probably do agree with him to bid 1♠, but I would never take the view that it was "obvious."

Consider your ther options

If you double, you're going to be terribly placed if partner bids diamonds, and your diamond shortage makes it very likely that you're going to catch a diamond bid. Yes, you will be very happy if partner bids spades, but guess what? On those hands you're going to do about as well having introduced spades yourself

If bid 2♣ on this anemic a suit, you deserve to play 2♣X down a bunch

1NT is unthinkable with no stopper and passing on nice 15 count is going to see you robbed blind.

Yes, a 1♠ overcall is imperfect, but its a lot better than the alternatives

[straube]

Found this from Lawrence's first book on overcalls. Page 10. After an 1H opening, dealt this...

KJ87
42
AK
Q6432

"Pass is probably best. With no reason to expect a fit, it is too dangerous to attempt any action.
If you must bid something I suppose 1S is best, but I don't care for it..."

I think Lawrence's hand example hand was at NV vs V. The OP hand has better spades but is all red.

[kuhchung]

straube, on 2015-April-01, 17:00, said:

Found this from Lawrence's first book on overcalls. Page 10. After an 1H opening, dealt this...

KJ87
42
AK
Q6432

"Pass is probably best. With no reason to expect a fit, it is too dangerous to attempt any action.
If you must bid something I suppose 1S is best, but I don't care for it..."

I think Lawrence's hand example hand was at NV vs V. The OP hand has better spades but is all red.

autodouble

[StevenG]

hrothgar, on 2015-April-01, 16:35, said:

Yes, a 1♠ overcall is imperfect, but its a lot better than the alternatives

Is your response structure different from what it would be if you guarantee 5 cards?

[helene_t]

The overcall does show five cards. Just accept that when you make it on a four card suit, occasionally partner will hang you.