[Trick13]

We have a weak 2♣ opener that is 4-8 HCP (exactly 4♠ and 4 or 5 of red suit). A good 8 HCP is upgraded to a PASS. My initial research indicated that the main downside for this bid was when it interfered with your constructive bidding, and after playing it for a year, this seems confirmed (no chagrin passing with that shape and a good 8+).

However we don't apply this reasoning to other other 2-openings (2♦ multi, and 2♥/♠ shows exactly 5-card ♥/♠).

Any thoughts?

EDIT: to clarify my question ...

In Jeff Lehman's blog he discusses this hand ...

♠ AQJ1053
♥ Q9
♦ 95
♣ J105

"Bidding issue #1. Do you open the North hand or not? If you do open, do you open 1♠ or 2♠? My preferences are that the requirements for a weak two bid and a one bid run continuously; that is, assuming adequate suit length and quality, if a hand is not strong enough for a one bid, then it is a weak two bid. I know of some other players who believe that there is a gap between the two..."


That one is a 1♠ bid for me, but the hand below seems too good for our 2♠ and no quite as good as you would like to upgrade to 1♠.

♠ AQJ105
♥ Q9
♦ 95
♣ J1053

Could you pass these hands expecting to get a chance to bid later, and in return be able to open your weak 2's a bit lighter.

[mike777]

OK so with 4h and 4s and 4-8 you open 2c, same goes for 5h and 4s, with a bit more you pass
but with 5s and 4-5h you open 2s with any wk range but with 5h and 4s and say 8+-10 you pass.
with a 6 card suit you open multi 2d.

[Trick13]

mike777, on 2015-March-25, 17:34, said:

OK so with 4h and 4s and 4-8 you open 2c, same goes for 5h and 4s, with a bit more you pass
but with 5s and 4-5h you open 2s with any wk range but with 5h and 4s and say 8+-10 you pass.
with a 6 card suit you open multi 2d.

With 5-4 in the majors we can open 2♥/2♠ - the responses cater for 4-cards in the other major. With 4♠ and 5♥, 2♥ would be 8+-10.

[mike777]

OK do you use multi to show both weak and strong hands. Just based on recent bridge literature playing both seems to have fallen out of favor at the top class of bridge.

[awm]

Trick13, on 2015-March-25, 16:52, said:

Could you pass these hands expecting to get a chance to bid later, and in return be able to open your weak 2's a bit lighter.

Certainly you could bid that way. The argument against, is that you will generally do better opening a weak two bid than passing when you have a generally suitable hand, provided the range is not too wide. The distribution of hand strengths is such that you will see more hands in the 8-10 hcp range than in the 4-6 hcp range, plus the stronger hands are more likely to have reasonable suit quality. So by passing the 8-10 hands in favor of opening the 4-6 hands (or any similar such decision) you are reducing the number of weak two bids you get to open.

[WesleyC]

I've messed around with various preempting styles, including a method where 2D & 2H show a 2-suiter with that suit and spades - it is an underrated method!

However, my experience of this method contradicts yours. To me it makes no sense to arbitrarily choose 4-8 HCP as your range while ignoring slightly stronger hands that would otherwise qualify. Hands that are near an opening bid appear with a higher frequency and also offer the most value when they do appear. As an example, you are more than twice as likely to hold 8 HCP than you are to hold 4 HCP. You're also much more likely to make a skinny game or get the right lead to defeat 3NT when you have 8HCP vs 4HCP.

You need to embrace the fact that your 2C opening is first and foremost a destructive action. When I played a similar method my goal was to open 2C as often as is safely possible because taking up space while describing your shape is FAR more valuable than precisely describing your HCP.

On a related note, it does makes sense to vary the 'range' of your preempts on based on the situation. Specifically, they should be wider ranging in some spots (We NV, They Vul, 1st/3rd seats) and tighter ranging in other spots (We Vul, They NV, 2nd/4th). I'm using 'range' here not just as HCP but also shape/suit quality etc.

My advice is simply to decide what a sensible minimum is in the various different seats/vuls and use that minimum up to just short of an opening bid. By doing this, you'll be preempting as often as possible and gaining the maximum benefit when you do.

In summary, although there are hands which don't qualify for a preempt (based on factors like 2-suitedness/poor suit quality/wrong vul) I don't think one of the criteria should ever be too many HCP.

[benlessard]

No gap 100% convinced about this. The very important side effect is what pass hand jump or non-jump would mean. For me its 5-5 or 6+4M or fit jumps.

[Trick13]

I agree with all your comments.

Quote

You need to embrace the fact that your 2C opening is first and foremost a destructive action

Absolutely. Partner will end the auction at the 2-level with an unexceptional 0-17 HCP.

Perhaps that is the difference. I would be uber-reluctant to pass a constructive hand just short of an opening. But our 2♣ as defined is quite frequent enough (3%), and whenever we do pass with the right shape but with a good-8 to bad-10 HCP partner seems to open a precision 1♣ and we have a nice auction but even if that subjective observation was not true, nobody else is opening with that hand, so we are still with the field.

[WesleyC]

Trick13, on 2015-March-26, 15:33, said:

But our 2♣ as defined is quite frequent enough (3%), and whenever we do pass with the right shape but with a good-8 to bad-10 HCP partner seems to open a precision 1♣ and we have a nice auction but even if that subjective observation was not true, nobody else is opening with that hand, so we are still with the field.

It feels like your reasoning here is being biased by some lucky experiences. In reality, when you hold 8-10 HCP it will most often be a part-score board which your side has the best chance to win by reaching a par spot quickly. Even if partner does have a strong hand, being able to open 2C in front of him and narrowly define your shape isn't terrible and might stop the opponents from preempting you instead.

Your 'gap style' also gives up another major benefit of playing this kind of opening: the negative inferences partner can take from your failure to open. For example if the auction starts:

P (2H) X (P)
2S

Partner can afford to be significantly more conservative than when playing a standard method, because they can rule out shapely 5-10 HCP hands with 4/5 spades. So the 2S bid is either a flat hand or very weak. The last conclusion I came to, is that using a 2C bid similar to this is not very valuable in 3rd/4th seat and you're better off going back to wide ranging natural preempts.

[Trick13]

WesleyC, on 2015-March-26, 21:32, said:

... In reality, when you hold 8-10 HCP it will most often be a part-score board which your side has the best chance to win by reaching a par spot quickly. Even if partner does have a strong hand, being able to open 2C in front of him and narrowly define your shape isn't terrible and might stop the opponents from preempting you instead....

You make good points but I am still having trouble convincing myself that I am wrong. (Does anyone else have the same problem?)

If we pass 8-10 HCP we have the same auction as at every other table. We miss an opportunity to preempt the opponents, we lose some inferences, but we don't mess up our constructive bidding.

If we open 8-10 HCP it's likely to be a part score hand (they will have 24+ HCP 25% of the time, we will 15%); we might land in a cheap part score we couldn't have bought otherwise, they may misjudge game. On the other hand we might miss the occasional game or bid a poor one when a constructive sequence would have saved us.

If we open 2♣ with 4-8 HCP then it is much more likely that it is the opponent's hand (they will have 22+ HCP 59% of the time). The worse that can happen is that they fall on their feet and we get an average. About half the time they will get too high or too low or end in the wrong strain.

OK, I exaggerate a little, but it seems the more frequent 4-8 range has more upside.