[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Mar 11 2005, 01:55 PM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 11 2005, 05:22 PM, said:

I use 1NT here, to show good hand, much stronger than normal, and as a game try. This way if partner is looking at 6 points for his balance we are at 1NT, not 2NT or higher.  So on your example hand, I would bid 1NT and with a sound 1♠ bid I would raise to 2NT, game is then bid without further ado.

And no, if I bid 2♣ instead of 1NT, that is not forcing. How can I possible have a good enough suit and points to force opposite a balance bid and not have overcalled to begin with?

Ben

So what do u bid with a balanced 9 hcp + stopper opposite pard's overcall ?

In many posts I have read of the modern tendency ov overcalling rather than doubling when holding a 5c Major and 16-17 without special features: in order to protect such hands I guess advancer should be able to bid 1NT with a balanced 9-10 count without 3 card support ?

I suppose 1NT should be used for such hands, but then again, the strong game try without support misses a reasonable bid...

I think one solution may be to use 1NT as forcing:
if it is the 8-9 bal hand, advancer will probably pass any normal opener rebid (or preference to 2M).
if it is the bal game try, advancer will rebid 2NT invitational natural.
if it is a long minor oriented strong hand (too strong for a NF 2m), advancer will rebid 3m.

While I overcall with 15-16 and the suit I bid (and actually more too), my balance in a simple suit at the one level will never be as strong as 15. I will jump to two of the suit with that much. Even 14 is too much, and even some good 13 is too much for the simple balance. I will often bid 1NT without a stopper in balance seat with hand with 13 pts and no clear suit to jump in to the two level.

The rule I use is that I will balance with some 7hcp up to about 13 in a suit. 14 points is too much, and if my suit is fair, 13 is too much. So with 9 hcp and no fit, guess what, pass comes to mind. I don't try to "Fix the contract." I am in no rush to bid a good suit of my own either if I don't fit.

If you make simple balancing bids with 15-16 points, you really need to use 2NT as natural.

Ben

[HeartA]

TimG, on Mar 11 2005, 01:10 PM, said:

Notice that if you switch the ♦K and ♦6, west can still make 3N; I think west was too conservative (given the system restrictions) and should have just bid 3N.

Tim

Agree. With the agreement of E-W, West didn't have much choice but 3NT.

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Mar 11 2005, 06:33 PM, said:

If you make simple balancing bids with 15-16 points, you really need to use 2NT as natural.

Ben

Sorry Ben,
I realize the issue becomes confusing.

I was advocating the use of 1NT forcing when responding to a direct overcall, not to a balance.
In this situation, advancer faces the same problem as outlined in the real hand (when 1S was in the balancing seat).

So:

(1D)-1S-(p)-?

Here advancer need anyway to be able to show:

a. 9-10 balanced, max 2 cvards support
b. balanced game try, looking for game if overcaller has opening strength.


I was suggesting that employing 1NT forcing by advancer, it is possible to handle both without altering RS system of raises while still keeping 2/1 bids as Non forcing.


But I appreciated a lot all the specific insight on balancing issues. :-)

-------------------------------------------

An aside: from the practical viewpoint, I cannot afford to overload my pard's memory with a system of raises that varies according to whether overcaller is in direct or balancing seat.

I do understand the efficiency of this, but that would simply be overkill: my pard has a hard time remembering many other things, I think it is importante to keep the meaning of bids the same, just adjusting the strength based on the light balancing requirements.

[whereagles]

Actually, Robson-Segal never mention whether for them

1C 1H pass 2D

is forcing or not.

But it is simple to infer that it has to be forcing because there's no way to bid strongish hands if it's NF.

Also, I agree one should try and not overload pard with varying methods. However, this is a case where one has to think whether the lack of forcing bids isn't going to make the system unplayable. You can try and dump all the strong hands into a forcing 1NT after overcall/balance, but that is not mnemonic with a forcing 1NT after opening 1M. I mean..

1C 1H pass 1NT = forcing. Strong if advancer rebids new suit.
1H pass 1NT = forcing. Weak if advancer rebids new suit.

So... I think it's just better to play 2/1 after overcall/balance as natural and forcing for 1 round. You may make it NF if RHO acts (because game is unlikely in that case).

[inquiry]

whereagles, on Mar 11 2005, 02:57 PM, said:

Actually, Robson-Segal never mention whether for them

1C 1H pass 2D

is forcing or not.

But it is simple to infer that it has to be forcing because there's no way to bid strongish hands if it's NF.

Clearly a new suit by advancer should be forcing. Robson/Segal show a few auctions where a new suit by advancer is forcing (usng the word "forcing") after the new suit bid.

Ben

[kgr]

Quote

Also, a cuebid would have shown a balanced limit+ raise in spades.

Why don't you play mixed cue bid: a balanced limit+ raise in spades or another invitational hand.
With a good overcall East does not bid 4S, but would cuebid again (or bid 3NT).
With the hands shown the bidding goes:
1D-p-p-1S
p-2D-p-3NT

OR

1D-p-p-1S
p-2D-p-3D
p-3NT

After the cuebid, overcaller does not raise to 4 with a good hand, but bids 3NT or cues again.

[Flame]

I just want to add that this isnt such a big disaster, you have 25 hcp balance with no fit and playing 1nt, sure its not it the your best contract ever but iv seen 3nt go down with more, if i look only at our hands id probelby be happy we stopper low.

[flytoox]

I think it is better to play 2N as natural, and 3S as invitational. There is no point to play 3S as preempt. Or you can play 3D as 4-card good raise.

[luis]

I think the problem is quite simple,
first of all I assume you don't want to change your system and of course you couldn't do that at the table.
So if 2NT and the cuebid are not systemmic then we have only 1NT and 3NT left, since 1NT is a serious underbid I pick 3NT with the optimism of the game bonus if 3NT makes. If you can have a 9 counter then 9+14 = 23 more than many makeable 3NTs we play every day and with points concentrated after the opening bid of 1d I think the 14 counter can be upgraded to 15/16 just because of the position.
With the systemmic considerations in mind the meaning of 3NT is now clear to the 1s bidder.

3NT. Quite simple.

[helene_t]

whereagles, on Mar 11 2005, 08:24 PM, said:

Ok, it should logically be forcing, but since the 2C bidder is limited by not doubling 1st round, in practice it is not.

Not really limited. I play Raptor myself so I sometimes have to pass in direct seat with 17 HCPs.

[Chamaco]

helene_t, on Mar 17 2005, 09:25 AM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 11 2005, 08:24 PM, said:

Ok, it should logically be forcing, but since the 2C bidder is limited by not doubling 1st round, in practice it is not.

Not really limited. I play Raptor myself so I sometimes have to pass in direct seat with 17 HCPs.

The way I play Raptor, an offshape 16 or 17 balanced hand would double and bid NT later.

An offshape bad/fair 15 balanced hand would pass, whereas a *very good* 15 with many tens might be upgraded and double.