[eagles123]

---

MP 2h weak

thanks

Eagles

[kuhchung]

4♥

i just wanted to see how that felt

[gszes]

The opps appear to have a game and if p is near minimum they may easily have a slam.
At IMPS I would just bash 5h and I see little to no reason to change that view at MP.
My hand is indeed boring and almost bereft of offense. If we can bring in 5h 1spade ruff
1c we are -800 so all the weak 2 bidder has to produce is 1 extra something over there
to make 5h MP safe. That's not too much to ask is it? I sure hope my nvul p has 6 hearts:)

[sfi]

I'm pretty sure it's right for them to bid 4S over 4H. I'm pretty sure it's right for them to double 6H. Over 5H it's not clear what's right, so that's what I'm choosing.

[wank]

4h.

even this could would well be too high (800 with no slam on) but they're unlikely to take a penalty from 4 when they've got a spade fit.

if they do happen to have a slam, 4 is the magic number with pre-empts for getting them to miss it - advancer often makes a heavy 4M bid to avoid risking the 5 level.

[Phil]

What do I want them to do? I have both minors tied down and I think we have a good shot at taking a heart + a club and maybe a diamond and a club. How can I get them to bid 6?

4♥ gets the 'wide ranging' 4♠ call on our left, and RHO makes the conservative pass. -650.

5♥ just gets snapped off and goes for 800/1100. No good.

I like 3♥. This will sometimes get 4♥ on our left and they might bid 6.

This strategy might backfire miserably if say declarer is 5=3=2=3 and dummy is 4=1=4=4.

[PhantomSac]

Trying to get them to bid 6 is extremely optimistic with zero tricks to me lol. I would just bid 4H and let nature take its course.

[eagles123]

well I thought I'd muck about a bit and bid 3n just incase the opps who I sensed were a bit weak would pass it out. Obv i went 4h when they doubled and that got whacked for 800

opps had slam on but no-one bid it

p had like

xxx
Kxxxxx
Kxx
xx

oops

[billw55]

I am tempted to muddy the water with 3NT.

[mr1303]

The problem with the modern style of pre-empting is that partner could have some defence here as well as us. I don't think this is a hand for heavy pre-emption.

[ArtK78]

When you are so hopelessly outgunned on a hand and you only have a moderate fit for partner (like Jxxx), it may be in your best interest to pass. Bidding 4♥ or 5♥ gives the opps a fielder's choice - they can either bid on (with full knowledge that their side has no wasted values in hearts) or they can double. As the opps tend to act in their own best interest, this usually works out badly for your side.

However, if you pass, the opps will not have as much information to properly evaluate the degree of their fit. They may misjudge the potential of their hands, and either bid game when slam is there or the reverse. And you will never be in the position of offering the opps their fielder's choice.

I have seen this work well in more than one instance. Dave Treadwell first alerted me to this tactic when he did not raise my preempt holding 5(!) card support. The opps missed their slam. For years I would bash like all the rest of the aggressive players, with mixed results. But every so often it pays to lie low and let the opps try to work out the situation.

Alternatively, you could psych a 2♠ call or something similar (2NT or even 3NT might work if it is not conventional). Redouble would be an interesting (but very dangerous) choice. But that is an entirely different matter than how high to preempt (if at all).

[rmnka447]

ArtK78, on 2015-February-05, 11:26, said:

When you are so hopelessly outgunned on a hand and you only have a moderate fit for partner (like Jxxx), it may be in your best interest to pass. Bidding 4♥ or 5♥ gives the opps a fielder's choice - they can either bid on (with full knowledge that their side has no wasted values in hearts) or they can double. As the opps tend to act in their own best interest, this usually works out badly for your side.

However, if you pass, the opps will not have as much information to properly evaluate the degree of their fit. They may misjudge the potential of their hands, and either bid game when slam is there or the reverse. And you will never be in the position of offering the opps their fielder's choice.

I have seen this work well in more than one instance. Dave Treadwell first alerted me to this tactic when he did not raise my preempt holding 5(!) card support. The opps missed their slam. For years I would bash like all the rest of the aggressive players, with mixed results. But every so often it pays to lie low and let the opps try to work out the situation.

Alternatively, you could psych a 2♠ call or something similar (2NT or even 3NT might work if it is not conventional). Redouble would be an interesting (but very dangerous) choice. But that is an entirely different matter than how high to preempt (if at all).

I entirely agree with your comments. I've also noticed that either hiding your fit or "under-preempting" can sometimes be an effective tool to muddy the waters enough for the opponents to be unsure what to do. It's something to at least consider when these situations come up.

[mikeh]

ArtK78, on 2015-February-05, 11:26, said:

When you are so hopelessly outgunned on a hand and you only have a moderate fit for partner (like Jxxx), it may be in your best interest to pass. Bidding 4♥ or 5♥ gives the opps a fielder's choice - they can either bid on (with full knowledge that their side has no wasted values in hearts) or they can double. As the opps tend to act in their own best interest, this usually works out badly for your side.

However, if you pass, the opps will not have as much information to properly evaluate the degree of their fit. They may misjudge the potential of their hands, and either bid game when slam is there or the reverse. And you will never be in the position of offering the opps their fielder's choice.

I have seen this work well in more than one instance. Dave Treadwell first alerted me to this tactic when he did not raise my preempt holding 5(!) card support. The opps missed their slam. For years I would bash like all the rest of the aggressive players, with mixed results. But every so often it pays to lie low and let the opps try to work out the situation.

Alternatively, you could psych a 2♠ call or something similar (2NT or even 3NT might work if it is not conventional). Redouble would be an interesting (but very dangerous) choice. But that is an entirely different matter than how high to preempt (if at all).

I once played against a pair whose names I forget (it was many, many years ago) who did the reverse of this, at favourable.

I held a good hand with 3 cards in their weak 2, but no stopper and too good to pass so I doubled and LHO raised on his stiff, convincing my partner I held shortness, so he bid aggressively, and I was then also in the same trap...'knowing' that partner held at most a doubleton and was favourite to have a stiff, so I pushed one level too high.

I've never seen it done since and have never tried it myself, but with the popularity of responsive doubles, it isn't as risky as it might sound, especially if the opps haven't seen it done before.

[ArtK78]

mikeh, on 2015-February-05, 15:25, said:

I once played against a pair whose names I forget (it was many, many years ago) who did the reverse of this, at favourable.

I held a good hand with 3 cards in their weak 2, but no stopper and too good to pass so I doubled and LHO raised on his stiff, convincing my partner I held shortness, so he bid aggressively, and I was then also in the same trap...'knowing' that partner held at most a doubleton and was favourite to have a stiff, so I pushed one level too high.

I've never seen it done since and have never tried it myself, but with the popularity of responsive doubles, it isn't as risky as it might sound, especially if the opps haven't seen it done before.

Mike, that is very funny. I experienced this once, but in reverse (the reverse of the reverse?).

I was playing with a good player who I had only occasionally partnered. On one hand, my LHO opened and my partner overcalled 1♠. I had Qxx of spades and very moderate values, so I scraped up a raise. The opponents arrived at a 4♥ contract. We cashed the first 3 rounds of spades. My partner had overcalled on AKx. Each of my opponents, holding 3 and 4 spades, respectively, assumed that their partner was short, and that contributed to their decision to bid game.

[diana_eva]

mikeh, on 2015-February-05, 15:25, said:

I once played against a pair whose names I forget (it was many, many years ago) who did the reverse of this, at favourable.

I held a good hand with 3 cards in their weak 2, but no stopper and too good to pass so I doubled and LHO raised on his stiff, convincing my partner I held shortness, so he bid aggressively, and I was then also in the same trap...'knowing' that partner held at most a doubleton and was favourite to have a stiff, so I pushed one level too high.

I've never seen it done since and have never tried it myself, but with the popularity of responsive doubles, it isn't as risky as it might sound, especially if the opps haven't seen it done before.

I did that in my very first live game. My pd opened 3♦ white vs red, opps doubled, and I raised to 5♦ on a singleton. They bid something over that, don't remember what. Pd lead the ♦Ace, played another diamond and I ruffed. We got another trick and just as the hand was getting close to the very last tricks opps noticed one of them had 14 cards and the other 12. We had to redeal, which was very frustrating. Our second attempt was not nearly as successful

I've seen it done at least twice since, and it worked every time.

[billw55]

diana_eva, on 2015-February-05, 17:06, said:

I did that in my very first live game. My pd opened 3♦ white vs red, opps doubled, and I raised to 5♦ on a singleton. They bid something over that, don't remember what. Pd lead the ♦Ace, played another diamond and I ruffed. We got another trick and just as the hand was getting close to the very last tricks opps noticed one of them had 14 cards and the other 12. We had to redeal, which was very frustrating. Our second attempt was not nearly as successful

I've seen it done at least twice since, and it worked every time.

Hmmm, a new tactic I may try out. Of course, you have to trust preemptor to not bid again.

[Mbodell]

mikeh, on 2015-February-05, 15:25, said:

I've never seen it done since and have never tried it myself, but with the popularity of responsive doubles, it isn't as risky as it might sound, especially if the opps haven't seen it done before.

I've done this before a few times and it often, but not always, works. If you have transferable values and shortness in partner's suit if you end up having to play it your transferable values might be tricks for partner. And if you defend your transferable values may well take tricks. And the opponents will be unsure of degree of fit and often too high.

I learned about it after one of the better players near me did it to me one time raising his partners 2♦ with a stiff and catching partner and I both with 3 cards and getting too high on assumed shortness.