[knicholas]

Probably bad question, but if a 4/4 major, then I bid up the line, if a 5/5 major, then down the line, but what if 5♠ and 4♥? I assume the answer is going to be a 1♠ response, but I have been getting this wrong. Also, must I always bid the second suite regardless of opener's rebid? Thanks.

[mgoetze]

Yes, bid your longer suit first, that means respond 1♠ with 5-4. As for your rebid, that is more complicated and generally depends on the strength of your hand.

If your partner rebids 1NT, then your 2♥ rebid shows a weak hand. It is almost universal to have some gadget, such as checkback Stayman or New Minor Forcing, to use on the invitational or stronger hands.

If on the other hand, your partner rebids 2 of his major, then rebidding 2♥ is generally considered forcing, therefore you should pass or correct to 2♠ with a minimum.

Some people play another gadget to help sort this all out, called Reverse Flannery by Responder, but it is beyond the scope of the Novice/Beginner forum.

[knicholas]

mgoetze, on 2015-January-29, 15:51, said:

If on the other hand, your partner rebids 2 of his major, then rebidding 2♥ is generally considered forcing, therefore you should pass or correct to 2♠ with a minimum.

Ok, generally makes sense. Thanks.

[Mbodell]

Yes you have it right. Some more explanation to try to show the reasoning (a lot of it revolves around the importance of finding 8 card or better major fits).

What do you do with a minimum hand with 5 spades and 5 hearts and what do you do with a minimum hand with 5 spades and 4 hearts? It can be the same. For instance both Kxxxx Kxxx x Jxx and Kxxxx Kxxxx x Jx might have an auction of 1♦-1♠-1nt-2♥. If partner is indifferent between the two suits, they can correct to spades (in case you are 5/4 and have more spades). If partner prefers hearts and plays there (say they are 2=4=5=2) then you are in at least as good a fit as spades would have been. You have enough length that partner, given they show a balanced hand with their 1nt bid, is guaranteed to have - at worst - 2 card support so the worst case you'll be in a 5-2 fit and you'll often be in a 5-3 or even 5-4 fit.

When you bid up the line with 44 you give partner the chance to support your suit and/or show their own suit. For instance with a minimum hand 4=4=2=3 shape if partner opens 1♦ you can bid 1♥ and since partner will raise with 4 card support and has space to bid 1♠ with 4 card spades* you will be able to find your 4-4 fits easily. If instead you bid 1♠ with this, and partner had 4 hearts, they would now bid 1nt to show their balanced hand. And you would either miss the 4-4 heart fit, or else be forced to bid 2♥. But note that if you are 4=4 in the majors it isn't safe for you to take 1nt out and bid 2♥ because now if partner has only 2 card support for you you'll be in a 4-2 fit (either hearts or spades), and even if partner has 3 card support for you you'll only be in a 4-3 7 card fit, instead of the worst case 5-2 fit (and often 5-3 or better fit) that happened with the 5-5 and 5-4 cases. So the whole approach doesn't work with down-the-line when your length is so short.

* - note some people will only bid 1♠ with 4 spades if they have an unbalanced hand and will rebid 1nt with the balanced hand instead. That is fine and a partnership style issue, but the general advice still applies.

Also note, a number of people violate this "rule" with quite weak hands over 1♣ when one of the suits is ♦. The basic reason is diamonds is a minor and they like to play in a major, so if there is no raise of the major they don't offer diamonds but just pass 1nt. So with a hand like Kxxx Jxx Kxxx xx over 1♣ a number of people will just bid 1♠ planning to pass 1nt. A 4-4 diamond fit is unlikely after a 1♣ opener, and NT pays better than diamonds. A fair number of people would favor the major even if the diamonds were longer like Kxxx Jx Kxxxx xx might still bid 1♠ over 1♣ again planning to pass. But this is all a partnership style issue again.

[Vampyr]

mgoetze, on 2015-January-29, 15:51, said:

If on the other hand, your partner rebids 2 of his major, then rebidding 2♥ is generally considered forcing, therefore you should pass or correct to 2♠ with a minimum.

I assume that by "major" you meant "minor", since 2♥ is not normally bid over 2 of a major.

When opener rebids his minor, a new suit is indeed forcing, but I think that it is not a popular treatment to rebid 2♠ with a minimum; more common is for this bid to be constructive. So you should have more than a minimum response (and should have 6 spades).

[Zelandakh]

Vampyr, on 2015-January-30, 03:09, said:

more common is for this bid to be constructive. So you should have more than a minimum response (and should have 6 spades).

Maybe in London but I am pretty confident that (eg) 1♣ - 1♠; 2♣ - 2♠ does not promise anything extra in the rest of the country.

[keithhus]

If partner opened 1H and I held 4 S and 5 minor (Ops passed), I assume the correct bid would be 2 minor. However, I can see merits in bidding 1S, would this be acceptable? Thank you

[helene_t]

keithhus, on 2015-February-05, 07:04, said:

If partner opened 1H and I held 4 S and 5 minor (Ops passed), I assume the correct bid would be 2 minor. However, I can see merits in bidding 1S, would this be acceptable? Thank you

Depends on the strength of your hand. With 6-8 points you can't bid your minor suit as you are too weak. With 13+ points you are strong enough to bid your minor first and then bid spades afterwards regardless of what partner rebids.

With 9-12 points it may depend on your system, but probably you have to bid spades with those hands.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2015-February-04, 18:50, said:

Maybe in London but I am pretty confident that (eg) 1♣ - 1♠; 2♣ - 2♠ does not promise anything extra in the rest of the country.

Not in London here, we play it constructive.

Had a funny with this over the weekend in a match, where due to the way we open our 1s and weak 2s, I was able to precisely call partner's P-1♣-1♥-2♣-2♥ as exactly 2 aces and nothing else (bar a possible J if 6322).

The guideline for 4M5m hands is that you can't pass without showing your major in an unopposed auction where partner repeats his suit. So if you have 5♣/4♠ and partner opens 1♥ in a non 2/1 GF system, bid 1♠ unless you're prepared to bid 1♥-2♣-2♥-2♠.

[paulg]

Zelandakh, on 2015-February-04, 18:50, said:

Maybe in London but I am pretty confident that (eg) 1♣ - 1♠; 2♣ - 2♠ does not promise anything extra in the rest of the country.

I'd be fairly confident that a fair number of tournament players would play this as constructive, although probably only a majority amongst the A Flight players. I'd not want to guess what is prevalent in the country but weak jump shifts are unheard of in my local club.

Of course most club players bid 2♠ looking bright and alert when it is constructive, and take a long time when it is weak. Seems to work for them.

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2015-February-05, 08:12, said:

Of course most club players bid 2♠ looking bright and alert when it is constructive, and take a long time when it is weak. Seems to work for them.

You've played in my club

(weak 2)-2N-3♥-3♠-4♥-P is similarly handled with tempo and body language when responder has hearts only and dummy is 3-3.

[keithhus]

helene_t, on 2015-February-05, 07:17, said:

Depends on the strength of your hand. With 6-8 points you can't bid your minor suit as you are too weak. With 13+ points you are strong enough to bid your minor first and then bid spades afterwards regardless of what partner rebids.

With 9-12 points it may depend on your system, but probably you have to bid spades with those hands.

Thanks Helene

[mgoetze]

paulg, on 2015-February-05, 08:12, said:

Of course most club players bid 2♠ looking bright and alert when it is constructive, and take a long time when it is weak. Seems to work for them.

This being the Novice/Beginner forum we should point out that this approach is not actually legal.