[dickiegera]

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South holding 5 Hearts how does he continue if he has pts to investigate or be in a slam?

I know that 4NT would be quantitive with apprx 16 pts.
How would one bid with 18 or so pts to ask for keycards holding 5 hearts?

Thank you

[ahydra]

There are various methods. Probably the most popular are "fake a suit" e.g. 3C/3D even with just 3 cards which is GF. If partner then bids 3NT you just bid 6NT. Alternatively, some people play 3H here as forcing with slam interest rather than INV.

ahydra

[whereagles]

I know a couple methods to show slam interest:

1. The fake suit method (like ahydra said). Trouble is if pard supports the fake suit, after which you either have good follow-up agreements or there's not telling what can happen.

2. The "3♥ forcing" variation. Trouble is it normally shows 6 cards. I never played it with 5 & slam interest.


3. The "forcing 2NT relay". I saw it first as part of Klinger's "KERI" scheme. Not very common, but I remember seeing it in textbooks as part of advanced schemes.


4. The "other major forcing" method. I.e. 2♠ here. Forcing bla bla. In this scheme bids like 3♠, 4m are splinters.


Opposite a random pard I think you'd need to go with method 1 and hope for the best.

[PhilKing]

With 5 hearts, you should not be unilaterally keycarding for hearts even with 18 points unless you have a great suit. In that case, the answer is that I would not have started from here.

Use whatever system bid shows 6 hearts in a forcing manner (eg 4♦) and then wheel out RKCB.

[Stephen Tu]

If you want to RKC for hearts, you Texas then RKC. With 5 hearts though you normally don't insist on hearts, normally with a side suit bid it, without a side suit you bid either 4nt to invite, or 5nt to offer choice of slams, and don't bother with key cards.

[Fluffy]

If you wanna RKC for hearts you simply splinter in whatever suit you want and then use 4NT.

[lowerline]

dickiegera, on 2015-January-25, 10:08, said:

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South holding 5 Hearts how does he continue if he has pts to investigate or be in a slam?

I know that 4NT would be quantitive with apprx 16 pts.
How would one bid with 18 or so pts to ask for keycards holding 5 hearts?

Thank you

He can bid his second suit or Splinter. After that 4nt is RKB.
With 5332 and 18 he can bid 5nt pick-a-slam.

S.

[GrahamJson]

The easiest solution is simply to play an immediate response of 3M (and 3m, if you like) as a slam try. Opener bids 3N with no fit, 4M with a fit and a minimum and cue bids with a fit and a maximum. Old fashioned I know but works.

[tfoerster]

Here is one approach: 4C is RKC in hearts.

Or, if you play Kickback, then 4S would ask for key cards in hearts.

In both cases opener has the option of correcting 5/6 hearts to 5/6 NT, since opener promised only 2, and responder should not have 6 or more, since responder did not use Texas.

Tom

[falcon111]

dickiegera, on 2015-January-25, 10:08, said:

---

South holding 5 Hearts how does he continue if he has pts to investigate or be in a slam?

I know that 4NT would be quantitive with apprx 16 pts.
How would one bid with 18 or so pts to ask for keycards holding 5 hearts?

Thank you

Responder can do two things based on his/her hand pattern . If the hand is unbalanced say 5+H or 4+m , then first make transfer to 2H then bidding the minor suit at the 3 level to create a game force first . This way opener have a chance to show fitness or non-fitness in ♥ at 3 level . If fitness found , one can ask keycards by the way 3014 or 1430 whatever method partnership uses for RKCB . If opener shows fitness in responder's minor suit , still responder may employ some minorwood ask on agreed minor .

If but if responder has purely 5♥ rest 332 or even 5♥4m(poor)22 pattern (4m suit does not have enough body to be introduced at the convenient 3 level ) , can bid 5NT as pick-a slam . This promises intention to play either in 6H or even 6NT or even 4-4 in minor (if opener bids a minor suit at 6 level if no H fit and eventually that 4+ minor happens to be responder's 2nd side 4 +card suit ).

[fourdad]

For the vast majority of players I think the direct method is the best. 1NT =15-17? If you have 18 and 33 points is a small slam, why not add 18+15=33 and bid 6nt?

If you have six hearts bid 6H instead. Leaves the opponents with no clue as to what to lead. w/ 33 points you cannot be off 2 aces.

Why make the game more complicated than it already is?

[masonbarge]

fourdad, on 2015-January-26, 15:00, said:

For the vast majority of players I think the direct method is the best. 1NT =15-17? If you have 18 and 33 points is a small slam, why not add 18+15=33 and bid 6nt?

If you have six hearts bid 6H instead. Leaves the opponents with no clue as to what to lead. w/ 33 points you cannot be off 2 aces.

Why make the game more complicated than it already is?

One is that we have all seen hands like this:

♠AQ10
♥Kxx
♦AKxx
♣xx

♠KJxxx
♥Ax
♦QJxxx
♣A

South's problem becomes finding a way to identify the King of Diamonds - in this hand he finds it using RKC if they play "cheapest King", otherwise it's a gamble.

A possible auction might be: 1 NT - 2H - 2S - 3D - 4D - 4NT - 5S - 5NT - 6D - 7NT.

[aguahombre]

GrahamJson, on 2015-January-26, 07:08, said:

The easiest solution is simply to play an immediate response of 3M (and 3m, if you like) as a slam try. Opener bids 3N with no fit, 4M with a fit and a minimum and cue bids with a fit and a maximum. Old fashioned I know but works.

Some of us actually do this. Some, only 3M, not 3m.

[microcap]

Just to clarify Klinger's Keri system on this topic:

1) It was designed with 12-14 1NT range..so with 15-16 you aren't likely to go slam hunting with a 5 card major and a balanced hand.

2) In this instance, a follow up bid of 2NT would actually show a 4 card minor with slam interest. You would NOT bid 2NT with 5-3-3-2. The followups after 2NT are complicated and I always forget them as Rex can attest. I can also attest it very seldom comes up.
In general, my guess is with 5-3-3-2 you would just transfer to the major and bid 4NT afterward to invite slam.

whereagles, on 2015-January-25, 10:54, said:

I know a couple methods to show slam interest:

1. The fake suit method (like ahydra said). Trouble is if pard supports the fake suit, after which you either have good follow-up agreements or there's not telling what can happen.

2. The "3♥ forcing" variation. Trouble is it normally shows 6 cards. I never played it with 5 & slam interest.


3. The "forcing 2NT relay". I saw it first as part of Klinger's "KERI" scheme. Not very common, but I remember seeing it in textbooks as part of advanced schemes.


4. The "other major forcing" method. I.e. 2♠ here. Forcing bla bla. In this scheme bids like 3♠, 4m are splinters.


Opposite a random pard I think you'd need to go with method 1 and hope for the best.

[brettnj]

I find it incredulous that no one posting on the forum suggested a "Goldman" slam try, something many of us on the East Coast (and many professionals, such as the late Paul Soloway and Larry Cohen)incorporate into their systems. (Bobby Goldman was a professional based in NYC, and one of the original members of the Dallas Aces.)
Over 1n or 2n, after a transfer to 2 spades or 3s, respectively, 3h after a 1n opener, and 4h after a 2n opener, is a slam try. Partnership can show no interest by bidding 3n or 4 of the major after 1n, 4s or 4n after 2n, or cooperate with a cue bid.

[Stephen Tu]

brettnj, on 2015-January-27, 12:48, said:

I find it incredulous that no one posting on the forum suggested a "Goldman" slam try, something many of us on the East Coast (and many professionals, such as the late Paul Soloway and Larry Cohen)incorporate into their systems. (Bobby Goldman was a professional based in NYC, and one of the original members of the Dallas Aces.)
Over 1n or 2n, after a transfer to 2 spades or 3s, respectively, 3h after a 1n opener, and 4h after a 2n opener, is a slam try. Partnership can show no interest by bidding 3n or 4 of the major after 1n, 4s or 4n after 2n, or cooperate with a cue bid.

Most of us need these sequences to show 5-5 in the majors. Using other major to show slam interest is common after stayman, but this treatment is rather uncommon after Jacoby.

[whereagles]

microcap, on 2015-January-27, 10:00, said:

Just to clarify Klinger's Keri system on this topic:

1) It was designed with 12-14 1NT range..so with 15-16 you aren't likely to go slam hunting with a 5 card major and a balanced hand.

2) In this instance, a follow up bid of 2NT would actually show a 4 card minor with slam interest. You would NOT bid 2NT with 5-3-3-2.

Re: 1. Well, you can use Keri with any NT range.

Re: 2. In Keri, yes it's 4 minor. In other advanced textbooks I think it can be 5332.

[microcap]

whereagles, on 2015-January-27, 15:44, said:

Re: 1. Well, you can use Keri with any NT range.

Re: 2. In Keri, yes it's 4 minor. In other advanced textbooks I think it can be 5332.

Re 1: Absolutely, Rex and I play it over our weird 12-16 NT.

Re 2: Please don't show Rex the other textbooks, he will try to make me learn even more stuff that I will never remember!

[Zelandakh]

whereagles, on 2015-January-25, 10:54, said:

2. The "3♥ forcing" variation. Trouble is it normally shows 6 cards. I never played it with 5 & slam interest.
[size=2]

I guess you are too young to remember but before transfers "everyone" played it as 5+. You can still see it played this way every day in the Acol Club too.

lowerline, on 2015-January-26, 05:57, said:

With 5332 and 18 he can bid 5nt pick-a-slam.

That is fine unless partner thinks it has the traditional meaning of being invitational to 7. If you play it that way round then you can use Texas followed by 5NT for PaS instead. If you do not play Texas then use the transfer+5NT sequence as PaS and transfer followed by 6M for the invite to 7 with a 5 card major. As usual, there are a few possibilities here so partnershup discussion is useful. Most 1NT structures have a couple of unused sequences along the way to grab for things like this - just make sure they are logical enough to remember at the table!

aguahombre, on 2015-January-26, 19:27, said:

Some of us actually do this. Some, only 3M, not 3m.

And I use 3m this way but not 3M! I did play all of the 3 level responses as natural before switching to transfer+multi rebids though - plenty of options possible here!

brettnj, on 2015-January-27, 12:48, said:

Over 1n or 2n, after a transfer to 2 spades or 3s, respectively, 3h after a 1n opener, and 4h after a 2n opener, is a slam try.

I play this after 2NT where space is limited but after 1NT prefer to use it as natural and invitational (5-5 majors). There are plenty of alternative ways of agreeing the major at the 3 level and initiating cue bidding. Try not feel aggrieved when other BBFers do not value your pet treatments as highly as you do. After a 1NT opening in particular, there are so many possibilities that finding another that plays a niche idea is always going to be tricky. As someone that plays a lot of non-standard stuff by choice, I can assure you it is not personal.

[whereagles]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-29, 04:58, said:

I guess you are too young to remember but before transfers "everyone" played it as 5+.

I'm talking

1NT 2♦
2♥ 3♥

not

1NT 3♥