[helene_t]

Aren't forcing passes vulnerable to exploitation? They can freely bid a short club suit intending to redouble (or bid 2♦, showing something else) when we double them.

[jallerton]

 Jinksy, on 2014-December-30, 17:28, said:

It's pretty rare not to have a forcing pass over their 2m if you've doubled their weak NT. I don't know anyone who's discussed it who doesn't.

I've discussed this with many partners. With quite a few of them I've agreed to play pass as NF. As long as you play double as T/O it's not essential to have a forcing pass available here.

[Jinksy]

 helene_t, on 2014-December-30, 17:40, said:

Aren't forcing passes vulnerable to exploitation? They can freely bid a short club suit intending to redouble (or bid 2♦, showing something else) when we double them.

If their agreements depend on a forcing pass, that would be one of the rare situations in which I wouldn't play them.

[PhantomSac]

 Jinksy, on 2014-December-30, 17:28, said:

It's pretty rare not to have a forcing pass over their 2m if you've doubled their weak NT. I don't know anyone who's discussed it who doesn't.

I don't play that we are in a force there with anyone and feel pretty strongly about it..

[PhilKing]

I don't play FP there either (I stopped playing them in about 1990).

[broze]

 helene_t, on 2014-December-30, 17:40, said:

Aren't forcing passes vulnerable to exploitation? They can freely bid a short club suit intending to redouble (or bid 2♦, showing something else) when we double them.

I don't see how this hurts you? Do you mean because it psyches you out of your natural club suit? Not particularly difficult to overcome with good discussion.

FP through 2m makes a lot of sense to me (and I feel strongly about it ). With very detailed agreements I have found it to be highly effective. In fact I can't recall a bad result. Surely people aren't worried about getting too high?

[helene_t]

The problem is that some pairs play ostensibly natural escapes but will also bid 2c with certain hands with 0-2 clubs. If we don't play fp they sometimes play 2c in a 3-1 fit. That is a calculated risk. They just hope that we bid something or we have game or opener has five clubs. If we play fp it is not a risk at all but otoh we get the chance to double them in whatever they escape to afterwards. So maybe it's ok.

[TMorris]

The only time I defended this auction neither partner nor I had a take-out double of their 2C bid as we had a 4-4 club fit so they played in their 3-2 fit non-vulnerable 2C-4 was pretty close to a top for us as we had no game. So on very limited experience this option does not concern me .

[lycier]

Defense to the Weak Notrump Bids

Provided by Neil H. Timm

More and more club members are using the weak notrump bid. What procedure do you use to defend against the bid?

The great American player Billy Miller developed a very simple defense which you might want to consider.

It goes:

DOUBLE WITH ALL HANDS THAT HAVE 14+ HCP

If the next hand passes or redoubles:

1. As responderto the double with less than 6 HCP, bid a suit or

2. With 6+ HCP or more PASS (both bids must be alerted)

If opponents are doubled ….then must not let them play below 2 spades, undoubled.

If they run……double for penalty.

To double you MUST have 4 trumps, and MUST lead a trump.

If they run,first partner to double is takeout DENYING 4 trumps

If neither partner has 4 trump then bid up the line

If they now run to another suit…….then all doubles are now for penalty

Use other conventional bids like Landy, Astro, Cappalletti, Mod Cappaletti, DONT, etc.for hands UNDER 14 HCP.

[Jinksy]

 helene_t, on 2014-December-31, 14:32, said:

The problem is that some pairs play ostensibly natural escapes but will also bid 2c with certain hands with 0-2 clubs. If we don't play fp they sometimes play 2c in a 3-1 fit. That is a calculated risk. They just hope that we bid something or we have game or opener has five clubs. If we play fp it is not a risk at all but otoh we get the chance to double them in whatever they escape to afterwards. So maybe it's ok.

What sort of hands? I can't imagine doing this unless I was so weak I thought they'd have an easy game on - in which case it would prob be a favourable psyche in their suit, more likely to be a major. If they do that, FP might be the best way to find it, if advancer passes hoping for a penalty and opener passes with nothing further to say.

[Jinksy]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-December-31, 13:17, said:

I don't play that we are in a force there with anyone and feel pretty strongly about it..

Can you go into more detail?

[phoenix214]

Of the defenses i have played, if you want to have a penalty double, then maybe Hello is an option.
X-PEN
2♣-Diamonds or major+minor two-suited
2♦ - Hearts
2♥ - Majors
2♠ - Spades
2NT - Clubs
3♣ - Minors
3♦ - Both majors and strong

+ Transfers, making NT opener on lead
+ Always have a pen X(works vs Strong and Weak NT)
+ Can play diamonds in level 2

- 2H is both majors
- Needs more discusion after opps bid something over your 2C overcall