[masonbarge]

The It, on 2014-December-26, 04:04, said:

Points don't make contracts - distribution does.

4♠.

Yes, your mighty five card spade suit will render all those aces and kings meaningless.

[mcphee]

You know litte, except the opps have no interest in any slam and partner was no able to act. He could have the wrong shape, even 4333. I think you must bid 4S here, no one likes a coward and you sure do not need much to make it. If thye dble you can always blame partner for having the wrong hand you were bidding.

[The It]

masonbarge, on 2014-December-26, 08:04, said:

Yes, your mighty five card spade suit will render all those aces and kings meaningless.

I'm not saying that just the 5 spades are the distribution - you've got an overall distributional hand - if you were 5332 then sure, that comment makes sense. You're 6/5 - come alive!

[The_Badger]

hi Eagles,

Tough call. I am not with all the players throwing caution to the wind and calling 4♠. It could work. Partner could also possibly propel you into a slam that is down. And quite a few other scenarios...

The 4♥ caller must be a strong hand, not a pre-emptive raise as partner would have surely come into the auction. (But if you call 4♠ your partner could well believe that the raise to 4♥ might be pre-emptive and take you for a much stronger hand) The 2♥ bidder opened vulnerable in first position. The 4♥ bidder didn't use Ogust either ( a slight clue).

We already know that two hands are unbalanced - yours and possibly the opener's. This whole hand could be a bit of a misfit. Rubber bridge is a completely different game to IMP and MP bidding, but would I bid 4♠ in a serious money game? No way!

If 4♠ is going light, 5♣ is probably light too. You might get away with a reasonable sacrifice if 4♥ makes, but I would let sleeping dogs lie and pass. A bit wussy I know, but trying to explain to your teammates a 1100 or similar penalty (if you were playing a team match) is not worth the hassle.

[Trump Echo]

I would definitely pass on the free bid.

But I'd pass on the balance bid too.

[MrAce]

The_Badger, on 2014-December-26, 08:29, said:

If 4♠ is going light, 5♣ is probably light too. You might get away with a reasonable sacrifice if 4♥ makes, but I would let sleeping dogs lie and pass. A bit wussy I know, but trying to explain to your teammates a 1100 or similar penalty (if you were playing a team match) is not worth the hassle.

The better your teammates the less hassle you will deal with, regardless of your choice in this hand. Only those who has little or no clue will raise hell over your decision if it turns out to be wrong. Some people play to win, rather than trying to avoid the hassle. That does not mean you have to put your 2 cents into every auction of course...

As we see in replies, some people look at this hand and see 8 hcp. And they naively believe it needs 13-15 hcp and 4 card spades in order to make game for us.
When I look at it, I see a void heart when opponents opened and raised to game in hearts. I also see a 6-5 hand, holding the boss suit. I also see all my 8 hcps are in my long suits.
Some imagine that RHO may have raised with only 2 hearts and a giant defensive hand while I imagine a lot of other hands too besides feared half trap half making intended 4♥. Including game for both sides.

Of course both actions can fail miserably. But I have a simple question to passers and you. Imagine a team game, 20 boards. You will hold exactly this same hand, and in all 20 boards LHO will have a vulnerable 2♥ opener, pd will pass, and RHO will raise to 4 vulnerable. Opponents will not know that you hold the same hand so they can not set you up intentionally and they will have their bid for this auction. You are allowed to choose pass or 4♠. Since you talked about money bridge, which one would you put your money on to come on top after 20 boards?

[bdegrande]

fourdad, on 2014-December-26, 06:28, said:

BINGO!! Although I agree with the comment that distribution matters as well. Is not the question still pds pass? If I was playing in a pick up game and had a pd who passed this with 13-15 point count and 4 spades. they would go on the blacklist.

Points don't matter, there are only a few key cards that are meaningful. Game could be cold opposite lots of hands partner wouldn't dream of bidding on ♠KJXX and a singleton club could be enough. On many other hands 4♠ or 5♣ could be a good save against a making game.

[PhilKing]

OK, I have dug up a few similar hands from the database, so try this quiz. On each hand the bidding starts 2♥-pass-4♥:

1. Game All. ♠ KQJ95 ♥ A ♦ T3 ♣ J9643

2. Vul v non vul. ♠ QT862 ♥ A6 ♦ 3 ♣ AQ872

3. Non vul v vul. ♠ KQ876 ♥ 96 ♦ 6 ♣ AQ832

4. Vul v non vul. 2♥ = Fantunes.♠ KT743 ♥ J ♦ QT ♣ AQJ84

So, do you feel lucky?

[Jinksy]

I feel lucky on all of them, though the Fantunes one at that vul scares me. Probably not enough to make me pass, though.

ETA - actually, sod that. On 2 I'll pass at this vul.

ETA ETA - Before you give the results, I'd like to know your selection method for the hands, though

[kuhchung]

i admit, all four of PhilKing's hands terrify me. for the actual hand I think 4S is clear. so if PK is implying that 4S worked on those 5-5 hands...

[PhilKing]

Jinksy, on 2014-December-26, 12:44, said:

I feel lucky on all of them, though the Fantunes one at that vul scares me. Probably not enough to make me pass, though.

ETA - actually, sod that. On 2 I'll pass at this vul.

ETA ETA - Before you give the results, I'd like to know your selection method for the hands, though

I just picked all four occasions where there was a marginal 2-suiter with 5 spades.

[masonbarge]

The It, on 2014-December-26, 08:21, said:

I'm not saying that just the 5 spades are the distribution - you've got an overall distributional hand - if you were 5332 then sure, that comment makes sense. You're 6/5 - come alive!

When the heart ace hits the table those clubs are going to be garbage unless you can pull trumps.

[ArtK78]

PhilKing, on 2014-December-26, 12:38, said:

OK, I have dug up a few similar hands from the database, so try this quiz. On each hand the bidding starts 2♥-pass-4♥:

1. Game All. ♠ KQJ95 ♥ A ♦ T3 ♣ J9643

2. Vul v non vul. ♠ QT862 ♥ A6 ♦ 3 ♣ AQ872

3. Non vul v vul. ♠ KQ876 ♥ 96 ♦ 6 ♣ AQ832

4. Vul v non vul. 2♥ = Fantunes.♠ KT743 ♥ J ♦ QT ♣ AQJ84

So, do you feel lucky?

4♠ on all of them. On all 4 hands, it is quite possible that both sides can make 9 or 10 tricks (possibly more).

Aside from everything else, the 4♠ bid may push them to 5♥.

[steve2005]

ArtK78, on 2014-December-26, 15:51, said:

Aside from everything else, the 4♠ bid may push them to 5♥.

Yes this gives you 2 ways to win. Opps may have been stretching themselves on distribution and may find it hard to double you even if you are going for a number

[the hog]

This hand will pass if you bid 4s? Dream on, Rik.

[johnu]

I found the split on poster opinions interesting. With few exceptions, the posters I consider to be advanced or expert chose 4♠, while there are a lot of new posters I don't know anything about who passed.

[GrahamJson]

Other posters have made much of having a heart void. This may not be such a great holding as it makes it more likely that partner is sitting with KQ10x or better and can't wait to defend. In many respects xxx would be a better holding as then partner is likely to be short and have a fit for one of your suits.

[GrahamJson]

Ok, if partner had xxx that would give him 14 cards, but you get the idea. Voids are great once you have found a fit, but in competitive situations like this they are often warnings of a misfit.

[chasetb]

GrahamJson, on 2014-December-27, 02:48, said:

Ok, if partner had xxx that would give him 14 cards, but you get the idea. Voids are great once you have found a fit, but in competitive situations like this they are often warnings of a misfit.

Well, when opponents have a guaranteed 9+ card fit, then you have AT LEAST one 8-card fit, and probably two fits, therefore, it cannot be a misfit! I bid 4♠ pretty quickly, because 10 tricks is easier than 11; if we don't have a Spade fit, I expect us to have a major Club fit and we'll find it then. If not, -500 is still better than -620.

[GrahamJson]

I don't trust oppo that much. These days players will open 2H on Kxxxx because "it's a bidders game", so there is no guarantee oppo have a nine card fit. Some days they may not even have eight. Yes, 4S could easily be the winning bid, but on average I think Pass is the percentage action. There is also partnership confidence. Partners aren't generally happy if you go for 1,100 by taking unilateral action when they re sitting on HKQJx. They are more likely to understand not coming in at the four level on Qxxxx. But maybe I'm still attached too much to Reece's ideas.