[hanp]

EDIT: split continuations to this old post from this thread here: http://www.bridgebas...ic/39224-1m-1h/

Dbl 4 or 5 spades.
1S not 4 spades
2C forcing
2H = 6+ spades, at least constructive.
2S = 6+ spades, weak.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2014-December-11, 03:44
Reason for edit: split topic to avoid necro confusions

[mgoetze]

So, I figured I would give this method (DBL 4+ spades, 1♠ 0-3 spades) a try after our 1♣ opening showing 2+ clubs, usually 11-13 balanced, either minor longer. I also figured that it would be nice to have a nonforcing 2♣ and 2♦ available (6 cards, to play opposite 11-13) and that I could just dump the forcing minor hands in 1♠.

Unfortunately it turns out that quite a few strong hands with a 5-card minor also have 4 spades. Adding those hands in with double seems like an overload (especially since I had been hoping to play system on, 1♣-1♥-X = 1♣-p-1♥ which also shows 4+ spades). Any suggestions what to do with these hands?

[Cthulhu D]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-08, 05:00, said:

So, I figured I would give this method (DBL 4+ spades, 1♠ 0-3 spades) a try after our 1♣ opening showing 2+ clubs, usually 11-13 balanced, either minor longer. I also figured that it would be nice to have a nonforcing 2♣ and 2♦ available (6 cards, to play opposite 11-13) and that I could just dump the forcing minor hands in 1♠.

Unfortunately it turns out that quite a few strong hands with a 5-card minor also have 4 spades. Adding those hands in with double seems like an overload (especially since I had been hoping to play system on, 1♣-1♥-X = 1♣-p-1♥ which also shows 4+ spades). Any suggestions what to do with these hands?

Just to clarify my understanding of the question, you're basically asking about raptor hands for responder right? e.g. 4S and 5m for responder? You could play something like:

1C-(1H)

X = 4+ spades, may be a minor canape only if GF - the normal problem hands are 5+ spades GF type thing, but you can put them here.
1S = not 4 spades, relay to 1N - rebid 2m with a NF clubs or diamonds style thing.
1N = Natural NF
2C = 5C 4S NF
2D = 5D 4S NF
2H = Raise
2S = Fit jump
2N = Clubs
3C = Other clubs
3D = Minors
3H = Stopper ask
3S = Splinter
3N = To play

Altenatively, if you want to put the 5m4S hands in X, then make 2C F1.

Tip of the Hat to Inquiry for some of the above.

[cherdano]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-08, 05:00, said:

So, I figured I would give this method (DBL 4+ spades, 1♠ 0-3 spades) a try after our 1♣ opening showing 2+ clubs, usually 11-13 balanced, either minor longer. I also figured that it would be nice to have a nonforcing 2♣ and 2♦ available (6 cards, to play opposite 11-13) and that I could just dump the forcing minor hands in 1♠.

Of course that creates problem (just like dumping forcing bids into a negative double when playing NFB) - what did you expect? I think after your badly-defined 1♣ opening, you shouldn't make life on yourself even harder by also making responder's bids badly defined.

[awm]

Here is what Sam and I do over our nebulous 1d and a 1h overcall:

X = 4-5 spades, or 6+ spades exactly inv
1s = 4+ clubs; will not have 4s unless GF
1nt = Nat
2c = 5+ diams
2d = 3144 plus a non-spade, less than inv
2h = 6+ spade not inv (weak or GF)
2s = balanced inv+ no stop
2nt = natural inv
3m = natural weak
3h = transfer to 3nt

Probably a bit off the original topic but works well for us.

Playing both minors as 3+, I prefer double as 4s and 1s as 5+.

[mgoetze]

Some good ideas from Cthulhu and Adam, but partner and I are looking for something simpler for now (which might be just 2m forcing but I'm not ready to give up on the 8-11 hands just yet).

I'm wondering if there's any problem with playing 1♣-(1♥)-2♥ as a strong hand with 4 spades and a longer (unspecified) minor.

[Cthulhu D]

Not really - I mean how often do you want to actually make the mixed raise of clubs when partner could be 2344? In my experience the answer is 'less than once a year at ~30 boards a week' You can just put them in 1S and then bid 3C over anything by partner as well.

[fromageGB]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-08, 05:00, said:

So, I figured I would give this method (DBL 4+ spades, 1♠ 0-3 spades) a try after our 1♣ opening showing 2+ clubs, usually 11-13 balanced, either minor longer. I also figured that it would be nice to have a nonforcing 2♣ and 2♦ available (6 cards, to play opposite 11-13) and that I could just dump the forcing minor hands in 1♠.

Unfortunately it turns out that quite a few strong hands with a 5-card minor also have 4 spades. Adding those hands in with double seems like an overload (especially since I had been hoping to play system on, 1♣-1♥-X = 1♣-p-1♥ which also shows 4+ spades). Any suggestions what to do with these hands?

After 1♣ (1♥) ... I play X = 4 spades and 1♠ = 0-3 spades, as you are thinking, because it is our normal twalsh bid and we like playing system on. I'm happy with it.
After 1♣ (1♥) 1♠ (p) opener will rebid 1NT on a normal sort of hand without long clubs, and then we rebid :
pass = to play, obviously
2♣/♦ = weak, to play **
2♥/♠ = invitational with 5+ ♣/♦ respectively
... (a 6 card minor will convert a 2NT declination into 3m)
2NT = natural invitation
3♣/♦ = GF

All of the above sequences are where responder does not have 4 spades. Where he has, it is just system on starting with X, so why not treat the strong 4x{5x} however you do normally with no second seat interference? Responder's bid of X takes no more room than his bid of 1♥ would.

Not that it may be particularly relevant for you, but for us X = 4 spades exactly, less than invitational, because we play 1♣ (1♥) 1NT/2♣/♦/♥/♠ to describe other types of spade holdings, as the minors are indeed rolled into the 1♠ reply.
** If you were not wanting to use the immediate 2♣/♦ response as artificial, then it is of course better to have the weak hands bidding this directly, as it allows opener support after 4th seat raises.

[mgoetze]

fromageGB, on 2014-December-09, 06:14, said:

All of the above sequences are where responder does not have 4 spades. Where he has, it is just system on starting with X, so why not treat the strong 4x{5x} however you do normally with no second seat interference? Responder's bid of X takes no more room than his bid of 1♥ would.

Because, while I do have all the hands with more than 4 spades in 1♣-1♥, I don't have the strong canapé hands in there. I would bid 1♣-2♣ (diamonds weak or GF) or 1♣-1♠ (showing 4+ clubs) instead.

[fromageGB]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-09, 06:54, said:

Because, while I do have all the hands with more than 4 spades in 1♣-1♥, I don't have the strong canapé hands in there. I would bid 1♣-2♣ (diamonds weak or GF) or 1♣-1♠ (showing 4+ clubs) instead.

So keeping the idea of 1♣ (1♥) 1♠ as 0-3 spades, accepting that balanced responder hands go this route, could you use 1NT = clubs weak or canapé, 2♣ = diamonds weak or canapé? This would retain your standard style (but with a NT/spade inversion if your normal 1NT would be natural.)

[mgoetze]

fromageGB, on 2014-December-09, 07:58, said:

So keeping the idea of 1♣ (1♥) 1♠ as 0-3 spades, accepting that balanced responder hands go this route, could you use 1NT = clubs weak or canapé, 2♣ = diamonds weak or canapé? This would retain your standard style (but with a NT/spade inversion if your normal 1NT would be natural.)

Yeah, I could, but finding stoppers in the opp's suit is kinda relevant too.

Anyway I still haven't thought of a good reason not to play 2♥ as the strong canapé hand so I'm going to propose that to my partner.

[karlson]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-08, 20:30, said:

I'm not ready to give up on the 8-11 hands just yet).

Usually nothing particularly awful happens when you make a forcing 2m bid with a 6-card suit and 8 points.

I think you should have room to do everything as it is, but if you really need to, playing 1n as artificial is also not crazy.

[diana_eva]

I split this from the old discussion bec it was confusing to people trying to reply to OP, and not noticing the necro/hijack. Mgoetze if you prefer another title let me know and I'll change it I don't know how to make you author tho.

[jillybean]

I play 1m (1♥) 1♠ 4+, X denies , could someone please explain the benefits of swapping this meaning to 1♠ denies and double = 4+?

Thanks.

[FrancesHinden]

jillybean, on 2014-December-13, 10:26, said:

I play 1m (1♥) 1♠ 4+, X denies , could someone please explain the benefits of swapping this meaning to 1♠ denies and double = 4+?

Thanks.

Opener gets to be declarer more often as well as showing spade length cheaply. Opener completes to 1S with 3-card support, jumps with 4, or rebids 1NT with a weak NT. Opener is now playing spade contracts, otherwise declarership is similar to the other auction.