[Wackojack]

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Over South’s 1♣ opening, West overcalls 1NT, North makes a normal penalty double and East rescues with 2♦.

I take it that a double by South is best reserved for penalties if you are playing 5533 or 5543 and strong no trump. (If you are playing Acol weak no trump presumably a double could include any balanced 15+.) So South above would pass round to North. My question now is what should a double by North mean?

My view is that this should not be a penalty double. True, if you were North with something like ♦ QJ109 and a balanced 11 you would want to penalise. Far more common North would have a hand similar to above. North could reason that South’s pass most likely shows a balanced 12-14 with fewer than 4 diamonds, less likely an unbalanced hand with 5 clubs, or a 4414 distribution. It is far better then, for North’s double in this sequence to be for take-out. So with the hand above South would take out into 2♥ and would play in this contract.

So what should be the general rules for penalty/take-out after an overcall of 1N is doubled? I can imagine North for his first double holds a token that says on it “Double is for penalties”. When East makes a rescue bid the token must be passed to South. So if South doubles it is for penalties and if West then rescues into a new suit the token is passed back to North who has permission to double again for penalties. OTOH if South passes, she keeps the token and so the token-less North can only double for take-out.

Is this the normal expert way or am I totally off beam?

[P_Marlowe]

We play, that X by South after 2D is T/O.

The penalty double should basically set up a forcing pass, up to a certain level,
lets say 2NT, and openers partner should basically always reopen with shortage in
their suit.

The penalty promised basically at least inv. strength, so asking to reopen, cannot
be such a huge proposition facing an opener.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[WesleyC]

The 'default' agreement these days after a values showing double, the next double is take-out, but denies extreme shape (e.g. a void or a 5/5).

On this hand South would double for T/O and North would get to go down in 2S.

[helene_t]

I would prefer to play double as typically a doubleton in their suit. At these cours, S can double for t/o and N bids 2♠ but at other colours we would just defend 2♦ undoubled. No passes are forcing.

[whereagles]

meta-rule I abide by:

"When opponents are in run-out situations, a direct double is penalties and a balancing double is optional (xxx or better in opps suit)."

[jogs]

Your side is 7=7=5=7. Their side is 6=6=8=6. They have the only 8 card fit. That means lucky for them and unlucky for you.

IF IMPs just pass. Live to fight on another board.
MPs: double is this is our hand. Please do the right thing pard!

[aguahombre]

In addition to the flat hand like North held, she could also have a trick-taking single suit --right?

Until the second possibility is revealed, we assume the first. Opener with a respectable balanced hand and 3+ in the runout will Double; if the runout is passed around to responder, she can Pass (as here) or Double for penalty. Opener already expected 3+ in the runout suit, so Responder's reopening Double doesn't need to be "optional", IMO.

Our meta-rule, if you will, is simple...if not optimal: If we have launched a cooperative doubling auction, a Double is cooperating.

[Jinksy]

For us it's the same agreement as if we'd hit their opening weak NT. That means their 2m retreat forces us, in which case first X is takeout, as WesleyC said.

But takeout is 'takeout', not takeout - it's any hand that's willing to hear a penalty pass but not willing to make one, and which can handle any likely response to P. That means most balanced hands should X (unless they have a penalty pass), but so, IMO, should eg AQTx x Qxx Axxxx, planning to pull P's 2♥ to 2♠.

So yeah, on this hand that means we X and go down. They were probably making 2♦.

[Wackojack]

After partner doubles a 1NT overcall and opponents start running

Thanks for the replies. So far I have got this:

Aguahombre & whereagles

Set the dogs on them if they run. All doubles are for penalties. If you judge you’re your dog is toothless, then pass.

Simple and what most would naturally play without prior agreement.

Wesley & Helene & Jinsky

Opener’s double is for take-out, bid to play, pass = pass the buck.

If opener started with balanced 18-19 and has values in the run out suit, he cannot pass if the pass is not forcing so has to double. Partner will take out and you likely have missed a great penalty.


Marlowe

Opener’s double is for take-out, bid to play, pass = forcing.

If opener has values in the run out suit, he can pass (forcing). Responder with good judgement can get a good penalty by doubling if there is one. Responder initially has to assume that the pass is made on a balanced 12-14 with 3 or more in the suit.

Wackojack

Rules for the penalty double token.

The most complex and perhaps easiest to forget.

Is this a correct interpretation of your views?

[helene_t]

Yes. I think if we both have three cards in their suit it is often ok to defend undoubled.

I don't think opener is likely to have 18-19 unless 1NT is a psyche but maybe if we play weak NT we should cater to opener having 15-16.

Maybe if opps play system on and you can't penalize both minors it is better not to double the 1NT overcall with marginal hands. Just play 1NT down undoubled when double would have helped them to a makeable 2m contract.

[Jinksy]

Wackojack, on 2014-November-26, 05:44, said:

Wesley & Helene & Jinsky

Opener’s double is for take-out, bid to play, pass = pass the buck.

If opener started with balanced 18-19 and has values in the run out suit, he cannot pass if the pass is not forcing so has to double. Partner will take out and you likely have missed a great penalty.

Yeah, though for better or worse we currently play pass of 2m as forcing, so this isn't a problem (obviously it can cause other issues). Even if it's non-forcing, it'll be very rare for P to pass it out.

(ETA) Also, arithmetic. If I have HCP 18, LHO has 15, and P has 10, we're playing with a Doppelkopf pack.

[aguahombre]

Wacko: your summary of my view is accurate. My view itself might not be as popular in these "everything is takeout" days as it was when we first adopted it.