[biggerclub]

---

So . . . does a 5♦ cue bid show simply the K♦ or is it more of a cooperative effort . . . something like "In light of what I have heard so far I want to encourage your efforts toward slam. And I have (first and) second round ♦ control." Specifically, is my A opposite my partner's void too much of a liability . . . or does my uber-maximum for a passed hand, plus an interesting card justify a second cue bid in ♦s?

[the_clown]

There is no way I am stopping below slam. I would bid 5♦ now and 5♠ if partner tries to sign off in 5♥.

[johnu]

Is this bidding right? North passed in 1st position???

[biggerclub]

johnu, on 2014-November-22, 15:27, said:

Is this bidding right? North passed in 1st position???

That's a different discussion. But yes, that can be criticized. Roundly.

I really wanted to discuss a more general style question. Which is whether slam bidding is a cooperative effort or whether you are compelled to show your assets regardless of suitability. The question has come up on more than just this one hand.

S, in this particular hand, is overbidding . . . but visualized a making slam if (and only if) N's values are not in ♠s . . . for example, ♠xxxx, ♥xxx, ♦AKxx, ♣KJ or ♠xxx, ♥Qxxx, ♦AKQx, ♣xx.

[PhantomSac]

Well for starters I don't think 4C shows a slam try, it says I have clubs please evaluate your hand if they bid 4S. For instance --- AKxxx xxx KQxxx is a perfectly fine 4C bid. In light of that 4D says "I have a good hand for slam if you were making a slam try." Responders only options were 4D and 4H since partner has not made a slam try. Over that 4S confirms a slam try and shows a spade control/almost always a void.

I think our hand is too good to just bid 5H, our SA is bad but it might be working (if partner has 3 low diamonds). Our doubleton club is also an asset. True we have already shown a slam positive hand and our SA looks suspect but I think we are worth another move. I would bid 5D showing a diamond control and respect a signoff.

[PhantomSac]

And to answer your other question more directly, yes it's perfectly fine to hit the breaks if you have shown slam interest and your partner then indicates a void in your ace. It is almost never mandatory to cooperate if your hand gets worse and worse, especially when you have already cooperated/shown interest. I just think your hand is good enough to justify 5D anyways. I do seem to get burned when I cooperate twice with 0 points in partners suits though!

[biggerclub]

PhantomSac, on 2014-November-22, 16:38, said:

I would bid 5D showing a diamond control and respect a signoff.

I think S with ♠ - , ♥AKJxx, ♦T9xx, ♣AQTx . . . should definitely have given up after 5♦. But he could not control himself. Having overbid his hand at least once during this auction he could not resist the allure of the 25 point slam on the magic fit (not to mention favorable splits and working finesses).

Fortunately we won the match anyway.

[PhantomSac]

If you had the hands he was hoping for, you would have a slam force over 4S. It's a partnership game, 4S is already a really big bid with his hand to say the least lol, if you cannot drive to slam over that then you cannot make slam

[biggerclub]

PhantomSac, on 2014-November-22, 17:18, said:

4S is already a really big bid with his hand to say the least lol

I was S. I forgot my own principle: Only overbid your hand once during any given auction.

[whereagles]

pard's 4♠ is inequivocally strong... just keycard and bid 6 if keys are there.

[fourdad]

Seems to me that the entire bidding sequence is convoluted. As a passed hand, what is wrong with just accurately describing a fit and 10+ points with a jump raise to 3H right off the bat?

[daffydoc]

my hand is all wrong - ace opp likely void - 3 small trumps - if partner needs only ak diam and xxx in trumps he has very close to a 2 bid. void akqxx xxx akqxx and still not necess a making slam. with both hearts and clubs not splitting.

[Trump Echo]

There are so many different styles, I don't think there is a right or wrong way to bid this - it just depends on how you communicate with your partner. And if your partner is a stranger, it will be all the more difficult.

For example, is the cue bid forcing to game?

If I was North, I would have passed the opening just as this North did, but as mentioned above, that's a different discussion.

My second call would be a jump to 3 Hearts inviting game in Hearts. It would not be a limit raise in the conventional sense. It would promise game values if partner holds anything better than a bare bones light opening.

Nonetheless, if I did cue bid, after my cue bid, my partner's Clubs call would show slam strength and concern about either the Diamonds or the Spades. He already knows my strength due to the pass combined with the cue bid. I would be obligated to bid 4 Diamonds.

His Spades call obviously shows a void. That's bad news. I would try my best to back out of the slam by calling 5 Hearts.

[WesleyC]

Pass in first seat shows that you count HCP too much! Over 4S I'd take control with keycard to explore grand.

Something like [--- AKQJxx xx AKJxx] from partner isn't unlikely.

[GrahamJson]

I think that you can over analyse this. Just show what you have with 5D and let partner work out what you don't have. If you sign off in 5H partner might reason that as you don't have anything extra in C or D you must have something in hearts, which may be what he is after.

And yes, I would have opened, 1NT in my case, being an Acolyte.

[WesleyC]

daffydoc, on 2014-November-23, 06:36, said:

my hand is all wrong - ace opp likely void - 3 small trumps - if partner needs only ak diam and xxx in trumps he has very close to a 2 bid. void akqxx xxx akqxx and still not necess a making slam. with both hearts and clubs not splitting.

It's funny because you see [--- AKQxx xxx AKQxx] and think "not necess making slam".

And I see [--- AKQJx xxx AKQxx] and think "HOPE WE DON'T MISS GRAND!"

[rmnka447]

I definitely cue a little differently -- still old-fashioned cueing Aces/1sts before Ks/2nds with some twists. So the auction as shown would imply 1st in ♣, 1st in ♦, and a 1st in ♠ obviously a void from our holdings. My continuation would be 4 NT which is a waiting bid not RKCB. It would deny a 2nd round control in ♣, but still indicate some slam interest. (With a 2nd round ♣ control, 5 ♣ shows a 2nd in ♣, but no 2nd in ♦s. 5 ♦ would 2nds in both ♣ and ♦.)

Over 4 NT, if opener shows the ♣ 2nd with a 5 ♣, there's room to show the ♦ 2nd with a 5 ♦ bid and let partner decide on any further action.

[SimonFa]

I'm not sure I'd key card opposite a likely void in Spades unless we've sorted out our void showing responses, 5D is much simpler.

[Timkin]

The best way for a regular partnership is to use an expert tool called Serious 3N after a confirmed M suit fit is establish - the 2♠ bid shows a limit raise or better. Serious 3N is a "non-specific cue bid" asking partner to cue bid his lowest control (A or K) - this allows opener to locate the hardest control to find - the K of clubs! With this agreement, a cue bid of 4♣ promises BOTH the A and K - so not worried about clubs
When responder bids 4♦ - denying the ♣ K, opener knows he may have a ♣ loser and can stop in a safe game contract with his 5 loser hand.