[Fluffy]

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Side question: how wide of a range needs opener (or anyone) to have for a 4♠ sing off to make sense when redouble is available. (for example if opener is 11-15, could he bid 4♠ over a cuebid doubled?)

[WesleyC]

I'm not a fan of South's 4C bid - surely it's more useful as natural (and hence the redouble is just confirming a fit). How else do plan to find a club fit when responder has a hand like:[Kxxxx AJ A KQJxx]?

On the auction as given, I think north was pretty soft not bidding slam with the undisclosed Axxx of trumps.

[whereagles]

Very unlikely that I would reach slam.

[FrancesHinden]

I also don't understand South's 4C bid, which surely shows clubs. Why not 4D, showing diamonds?
This does have the downside of making North think his hand is worse, not better.

[lamford]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-November-18, 12:45, said:

I also don't understand South's 4C bid, which surely shows clubs. Why not 4D, showing diamonds?
This does have the downside of making North think his hand is worse, not better.

I agree 4D is better, although the North hand would fit as well opposite ♦x ♣KQxx in the minors as opposite ♦KQxx ♣x, so it should not matter.

[PhantomSac]

North is absolutely insane lol. Think about the context of his bidding.

1) Rejects a game invite in spades.
2) Signs off over 4D.

Even after all of that, south continues on. At some point north can say hey I have 4 spades when I could have 2, that is already a pretty good hand. I also have no extra wastage in clubs than I have shown. I also have a doubleton heart.

He has a fantastic hand in context of his current bidding. He has 3 options, bid slam, bid 5H, or sign off. He elects to choose the weakest of those. I mean come on his bidding is consistent with Kx Qxx Jxxx AJxx. He has chosen the weakest action 3 times (other than showing his club ace which I think is mandatory in this auction to answer your other question), he should have a terrible hand.

FWIW I think south is insane to bid over 4S. I would expect south to have much better. I think even bidding 4S is a bad bid instead of 4H but maybe you do not play last train, I mean having 4 spades and a doubleton is already very unusual for a hand that just bid 3S, I get why north did it but after that he owes cooperation when south keeps trying for slam. When he signs off AGAIN and south tries AGAIN he has a slam force. There is not a chance that south is going to bid slam with his actual hand unless north drives it. But to not even cooperate over 5C, that is just lol bad.

And lastly, yeah I agree with everyone else that since a fit has not been found, 4C cannot be a cuebid and should be natural, just as 1N p 2H p 2S p 3C is.

[Fluffy]

Ok, Wesley and others have convinced me that 4♣ was wrong and should be natural. We were lucky that double put us in a very good situation, able to reach slam that was impossible otherwise.

PhantomSac, on 2014-November-18, 16:38, said:

FWIW I think south is insane to bid over 4S.

If you call me insane for bidding over 4♠ I wonder what you'd call me if I blasted 6♠ as I was close to . Every hand I was picturing partner for had 1 honnor in each suit. ♠K, ♥Q, ♦K , ♣A being the main option IMO. But then he would have only 2 spades and ♠10 would be an issue. With [p]QJ10 I would had blasted 6 I think.

For me, and I think my partner agrees, over 4♦ partner only has 2 bids: 4♥ and 4♠, showing heart control or not. You seem to think otherwise.

On of the problems on this hand is partner is hating his ♥Q, and I know it is golden.

[PhantomSac]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-19, 03:07, said:

For me, and I think my partner agrees, over 4♦ partner only has 2 bids: 4♥ and 4♠, showing heart control or not. You seem to think otherwise.

Well, no, that is why I said:

Quote

. I think even bidding 4S is a bad bid instead of 4H but maybe you do not play last train,

If you do not play last train and 4H shows a heart control, then I still don't see why 4H and 4S are the only bids. You can drive past 4S with no heart control. For instance with Axx xxx Kxx Axxx I cannot imagine bidding 4S even if 4H promises a heart control, you can bid 5D.

Quote

Every hand I was picturing partner for had 1 honnor in each suit. ♠K, ♥Q, ♦K , ♣A being the main option IMO.

So we are already giving him a 12 count with no heart control that could not bid game after 3H, and you think that is "every hand." I don't really get it but ok. Can't he have xx Qxx KJx AJxx? K Q K A is surely the best case scenario. That is close to an accept over 3H, esp with 3+ spades. And surely playing with a good partner when he has a max for 3S, even if 4H would show a heart control, he will bid slam or at least cooperate over 5C??? He has already denied a heart control in your methods, so 5H unambiguously says they like their hand rather than showing a control, and with the DK they can bid 5D lol.

Yes, jumping to 6S over 4S is just retarded, with or without the ST. You have a partner. What hand are you worried about that will miss slam after 5C? You give K Q K A, but that hand will at the very least bid 5D over 5C. Axxx Qx Jxx Axxx is apparently a possible hand for 3S then 4S, surely that hand should bid at least 5H over 5C??

Jumping to 6S with QJTxxx AJx AQTx ---, opposite an 11-13 NT with a heart overcall on your right, when your partner rejects a spade invite and denies a heart control and shows the ace of ***** clubs, yes that is absolutely ludicrous when you have the ability to still involve him. I don't know what to tell you, it is indefensible imo if you would like to defend that position then go ahead and make your case please.

If you also want to explain why your partner is not worth at least 5H over 5C having denied a heart control already then I'd love to hear that.

Also, with what hand when we hold Axxx Qx Jxx Axxx is slam not good when partner bids 5C after we deny a heart control?

I mean seriously dude I cannot get over you saying with the ST you would bid slam over 4S. Not to be a bean counter, but we have a 14 count opposite a partner that has shown 11-13 with the ace of our void and no control in our AJx. That sounds like a slam force. And partner has also already shown a minimum opposite an invite in our suit. If that sounds more like a slam force to you than a 5 level danger hand, I don't know what to tell you, your judgement seriously differs from mine.

[Fluffy]

mmm, upon reflection I might had been taking partner's small hessitation to bid 3♠ into account

[PhantomSac]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-19, 04:36, said:

mmm, upon reflection I might had been taking partner's small hessitation to bid 3♠ into account

sweet

[PhantomSac]

Fluffy, on 2014-November-19, 04:36, said:

mmm, upon reflection I might had been taking partner's small hessitation to bid 3♠ into account

In that case I think you were owed a small hesi 3S, a shrug 4S (to indicate a good hand but no H control) and a tank 5h (to indicate that it's not a heart control). A tank 5S is still an underbid, north has a massive hand.

However then the opps might call the director. I think it should be a small hesi 3S (esp if partner is usually fast, they can't rule its a hesi since they don't play vs you much but you know), a quick 4S (reverse weasel, slow 4S is an attempt to bar you, fast 4S shows a problem with no H control), and a quick 5H (same thing, reverse weasel).

You can really give it a quick 5C, that is 2 way either thinking of passing or thinking of 6S. If your partner is interested they can coooperate, over that with a thinking of pass you can sign off (slow) and a thinking of slam you can bid slam.

You should post relevant methods like this in the OP so we can evaluate the real auction and what people are thinking of.

[Fluffy]

PhantomSac, on 2014-November-19, 03:51, said:

I mean seriously dude I cannot get over you saying with the ST you would bid slam over 4S. Not to be a bean counter, but we have a 14 count opposite a partner that has shown 11-13 with the ace of our void and no control in our AJx. That sounds like a slam force. And partner has also already shown a minimum opposite an invite in our suit. If that sounds more like a slam force to you than a 5 level danger hand, I don't know what to tell you, your judgement seriously differs from mine.

Because all my aracno senses were telling me that partner had ♥Q and exactly 1 honnor in each suit. And I was right. But now I think some of those table feelings were comming from ilegal sources.

[Fluffy]

PhantomSac, on 2014-November-19, 04:41, said:

In that case I think you were owed a small hesi 3S, a shrug 4S (to indicate a good hand but no H control) and a tank 5h (to indicate that it's not a heart control). A tank 5S is still an underbid, north has a massive hand.

However then the opps might call the director. I think it should be a small hesi 3S (esp if partner is usually fast, they can't rule its a hesi since they don't play vs you much but you know), a quick 4S (reverse weasel, slow 4S is an attempt to bar you, fast 4S shows a problem with no H control), and a quick 5H (same thing, reverse weasel).

You can really give it a quick 5C, that is 2 way either thinking of passing or thinking of 6S. If your partner is interested they can coooperate, over that with a thinking of pass you can sign off (slow) and a thinking of slam you can bid slam.

You should post relevant methods like this in the OP so we can evaluate the real auction and what people are thinking of.

Oh yeah and you forgot the wrist movement while placing 4♣ to indicate it is artificial