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preempt hand doubles - now what?

#1 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 12:07

Indy on BBO, Matchpoints. Everyone random. Pd's profile shows advanced if it matters.



1) What is X?
2) What would you do now?

#2 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 12:13

Perhaps I am way too simple minded, but if a random doubles this I would think that he believes he will beat that 5♠ and he has an unusual 5♦ bid. I will get out of his way and pass. If he meant something other than that with a random pd (me), and expected me to solve it for him, he can go ***** himself.Posted Image

I pass
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 13:43

You promise nothing by passing 5 ♠. Partner has already said his interest is in playing in ♦ and not elsewhere. The only logical interpretation for the double is that partner thinks he can beat 5 ♠.

I pass.
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#4 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 13:57

Usually these doubles say "I have some defensive values". I'll pull, because I have absolutely nothing in defense and, unless pard has some wierd powerhouse, they rate to make 5♠ no sweat.
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#5 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 14:31

partner is playing euchre and he just called "alone"
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#6 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 15:52

Partner bid 5♦ intending to make, not as a sacrifice... he expects to set 5♠x without any help from you. He might even have something silly like void, AKx, AKQJxxx, AKx and figures opener to have basically all the honors that he doesn't have.
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#7 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 15:57

View Postdiana_eva, on 2014-November-16, 12:07, said:


Indy on BBO, Matchpoints. Everyone random. Pd's profile shows advanced if it matters. 1) What is X?
2) What would you do now?
IMO 6♦ = 10, Pass = 9. I feel that double should show extra offence e.g.
♠ - ♥ K x x ♦ A K J x x x x x x x ♣ -
i.e. Partner would like you to bid on but is consulting you in case you have a defensive trump stack.
With no systemic understanding, Steve2005 and Mr Ace could well be right, however :(
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#8 User is offline   SteveMoe 

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Posted 2014-November-16, 21:44

The double says "I want to bid 6♦ but defer to you partner in case you can double 5♠" so partner must bid 6♦ with no defense. 6♦ is right here.
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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 00:35

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-November-16, 21:44, said:

The double says "I want to bid 6♦ but defer to you partner in case you can double 5♠" so partner must bid 6♦ with no defense. 6♦ is right here.


Oh, is that so in random pick up pdships? Good to know.
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#10 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 02:52

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-November-16, 21:44, said:

The double says "I want to bid 6♦ but defer to you partner in case you can double 5♠" so partner must bid 6♦ with no defense. 6♦ is right here.


Even with partnership agreement, it cannot possibly mean that - (1S)-5D-(5S)-X is surely penalties, so if this hand has a penalty double now, they had a penalty double on the previous round and would have doubled then. With glee. In this case it has to mean '5D was to make or to sucker them into bidding something and now that they have bid 5S I am doubling for penalties'

You'd bid six with surprising offense or you thought 6D was making and 5S was a good slam, which your 4-3-3-3 count does not have.
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#11 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 02:54

OK thanks for the replies.

Here's what happened:



I was the 5♦ bidder and doubler, and thought, at the time, that X shows some defensive values, inviting pd to sac or pass, depending on what she holds. That was a bad idea in a random game, and it became clear when pd agonized over my X before she eventually passed.

I wanted to check how bad it was to pull something like that off in a random partnership :P

#12 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 03:58

Obvious pass, regardless of a random pd or in an expert partnership. Pd expects to beat this. On Nigel's scale, pass = 10 and pulling = 0.

If I were on lead this might well be a Lightner double.
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#13 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 05:45

View Postdiana_eva, on 2014-November-17, 02:54, said:

I wanted to check how bad it was to pull something like that off in a random partnership :P


Probably worse than in one where you'll have to look PD in the eye again ;)
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#14 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 05:48

View PostJinksy, on 2014-November-17, 05:45, said:

Probably worse than in one where you'll have to look PD in the eye again ;)


I was prompt to apologize and we separated in friendly terms, despite the big fat zero :)

#15 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2014-November-17, 08:09

View PostSteveMoe, on 2014-November-16, 21:44, said:

The double says "I want to bid 6♦ but defer to you partner in case you can double 5♠" so partner must bid 6♦ with no defense. 6♦ is right here.

This is impossible since in that case preemptor's partner would have double. I agree that this is the standard meaning in direct seat, but in balancing seat the double must promise at least one defensive trick. Possibly two. Not three though. So I pull.
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#16 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2014-November-21, 19:38

Is it possible to have a hand with 3 or 4 defensive tricks long♦ but not strong enough to double 1♠ initially?
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