[ArtK78]

IMPs. 28 board match.

The match is close with only a few boards to go. Then you get this hand:

---

Do you act over 4♠?

[the_clown]

No and its not close at all.

[mcphee]

Yes I do, and pass and hope partner dbles at which point my hand is not so bad and I can bid 4N.

[billw55]

Pass but I do think it is close. The vulnerability is right, and I have no defense.

[helene_t]

Our teammates will bid the slam so 13 IMPs to us. No stripe-tail-ape doubles for me after opps have already missed the slam.

[whereagles]

is that for real, helene?

anyway, pass of course. Not enough trumps to be safe.

[MrAce]

 ArtK78, on 2014-November-05, 06:39, said:

Do you act over 4♠?

I know the hand, but regardless I would not act over 4♠

[ahydra]

Pass (and 4NT if partner reopens with X).

ahydra

[gszes]

Pass


and do not consider it close since we have no good sac unless
partner (who also sees the vulnerability) is distributional enough
to act over 4s. Partner will also be able to see we are short in
spades on most hands making their decision to act or not much wiser
than anything we can decide at this point.

I wonder how one would act anyway since 4n (imho) is still a very
significant tool for slam search and to x with this hand might
give partner the impression we actually have something useful here
and have partner thinking about pass (ughh).

[ggwhiz]

 gszes, on 2014-November-05, 09:26, said:

Pass

For all of those reasons plus unless it's clear cut, (which this certainly isn't) competitive decisions belong to passout seat.

[KurtGodel]

 the_clown, on 2014-November-05, 07:03, said:

No and its not close at all.

This. In my experience, just sell out, this action is unlikely to gain massively. Think win 5 on a good day, but good easily lose out win the opps now bid and make slam, or we go for a large number, or they weren't even going to make 4S, but we are going for 300. Don't really see the upside of intervening.

[ArtK78]

I guess that, in the face of overwhelming sentiment to the contrary, it appears that my decision to bid 4NT over 4♠ is not a popular one. It turned out to be a winning decision, in that 4♠ is cold and 5♥ (which was the result of my call) went for 500 (due to a poor or unlucky choice of opening lead). Still, I will think about this some more.

Many expressed the idea that my partner should be in a position to decide whether we should bid more. I don't see how he can come up with any rational decision based on his hand when I am the one with 10 cards in the minors. Surely he cannot know that. In my opinion, if I do not act directly over 4♠ the final contract will be 4♠ with rare exceptions.

Also, some posters stated that if partner balances with a double they will bid 4NT. I don't disagree with that, given our ODR, but it is somewhat inconsistent. Partner overcalls 3♥ into a live auction and then doubles the opps freely bid game. Might he not have 4 defensive tricks? For example:

Ax
AKxxxx
Ax
xxx

So our run to 5 of a minor will turn a plus into a minus. Is this another instance where one passes if one has the opps beat but doubles to compete?

Much to think about.

[aguahombre]

Timo says he knows the hand, but still wouldn't act. This suggests some dumb move would have worked. However, if I tried something on this pile, the Bridge Gods would find a way to make sure I got the justice I deserved.

[mikeh]

 ArtK78, on 2014-November-05, 11:22, said:

I guess that, in the face of overwhelming sentiment to the contrary, it appears that my decision to bid 4NT over 4♠ is not a popular one. It turned out to be a winning decision, in that 4♠ is cold and 5♥ (which was the result of my call) went for 500 (due to a poor or unlucky choice of opening lead). Still, I will think about this some more.

Many expressed the idea that my partner should be in a position to decide whether we should bid more. I don't see how he can come up with any rational decision based on his hand when I am the one with 10 cards in the minors. Surely he cannot know that. In my opinion, if I do not act directly over 4♠ the final contract will be 4♠ with rare exceptions.

Also, some posters stated that if partner balances with a double they will bid 4NT. I don't disagree with that, given our ODR, but it is somewhat inconsistent. Partner overcalls 3♥ into a live auction and then doubles the opps freely bid game. Might he not have 4 defensive tricks? For example:

Ax
AKxxxx
Ax
xxx

So our run to 5 of a minor will turn a plus into a minus. Is this another instance where one passes if one has the opps beat but doubles to compete?

Much to think about.

Art, I think that we have had numerous discussions in these fora with respect to the meaning of high-level reopening doubles. I am pretty sure that the consensus, amongst the better players at least, is that such a double announces values rather than a desire to penalize.

Thus 3♥ then double would prototypically be 1=6=3=3 with a strong hand. We expect to beat them most of the time, if partner can't move, but we also expect to have good support for any decision he makes should he have unusual shape.

As for your example hand, it wouldn't occur to me to double with Ax AKxxxx Ax xxx. Why do I expect to beat it? Sure, I will often beat it and turn 100 into 200, but opps have been known to be short in my AKxxxx suit, and now I am turning 620 into 790. Am I 5-3 favourite to beat it? Maybe, but more importantly, I show a different hand with my double!

As for 4N by advancer, the action you took, it frankly makes me shudder. What is there about this auction that suggests you have 5-level safety? Indeed, I wouldn't be at all comfortable, absent prior agreement, that 4N is takeout rather than keycard.

We do have double as transferable values, with partner permitted to pull, but we have no other keycard method. Maybe the vulnerability is enough to make us assume that we are more likely to want to save (and be unable to double) than to look for slam, but I am not a fan of agreements that depend on the opps's bidding + the vulnerability to assign meanings to my actions. Were we red v white, I suspect 4N keycard would be fairly common.

[johnu]

With a singleton spade, partner's longest side suit may be spades if he has a side suit at all. I would pass even if I was playing a version of the Doctors system and knew partner's distribution in the minors. It appears highly unlikely we can make a 5 level contract, and it looks like 2 down would be a great outcome, while 3 or 4 down appear too likely to make a sacrifice look appetizing. And if ♠ is going down ......

[the hog]

 ggwhiz, on 2014-November-05, 09:58, said:

For all of those reasons plus unless it's clear cut, (which this certainly isn't) competitive decisions belong to passout seat.

Pass and of course this is absolutely clear cut unless you are drunk and fooling around. As stated by others, 4NT over a x.

Art, I don't think any bridge player would x on
Ax
AKxxxx
Ax
xxx

Anyway, you yourself state that you were lucky to only go for 500