[jazzek]

Today I have won BBO Fast Free Tournament
but I am not happy
in the 5th of 6 boards
opponents bidded wild I doubled they redoubled and after couple of minutes
time was out and the result was Ave - 50/50
my 100 changed to 50 and I could do nothing
my automated free judge suggested leaving tournament
why is it so?

This post has been edited by barmar: 2014-October-12, 20:52
Reason for edit: removed personal email address

[barmar]

Please report the opponents who did this to abuse@bridgebase.com.

[Bbradley62]

So, one hand took too long... There was a long complicated auction, and then there was only time to complete six full tricks. It seems that OP is complaining about the format of the Express Free Automated Fun tournaments, not the behavior of the opponents. (It's not at all clear to me why he thinks anyone suggested that he leave the tournament, except if he was slow to play at some point and the automated "director" warned him of impending removal.)

[barmar]

It sounds more like he's talking about the opponents deliberately playing slowly, so that the clock would run out and they'd get an average. That's a common strategy in the express tourneys when you're in a stupid contract. You make each play slowly enough that you get the warning about being replaced with a robot, but not so slowly that you actually get replaced.

[jazzek]

Actually, I meant that something was working bad there. And even if my opponents have got any plus because of knowing it I do not want to accuse them. I wanted to accuse the system. Any time when I was playing and did not finish in time, the judge came from behind with verdict any time. I was just surprised that Ave was this time stated and why?

Thanx for response

PS. barmar - okbridge?

[jazzek]

And leaving tournament was the option that I found when I tried to find justice when next board was in action.

[Bbradley62]

jazzek, on 2014-October-14, 16:30, said:

Any time when I was playing and did not finish in time, the judge came from behind with verdict any time. I was just surprised that Ave was this time stated and why?

If you have finished at least 8 tricks when you run out of time, the system will finish the hand for you and assign you a score. If you have not finished at least 8 tricks, everyone gets average.

You played this hand in your tournament just before the one we are talking about. Since the hand ended before 8 tricks were completed, everyone got average:

---

[barmar]

jazzek, on 2014-October-14, 16:30, said:

PS. barmar - okbridge?

Yeah, that's me, but I haven't been on OKbridge in years.

[jazzek]

Bbradley62, on 2014-October-14, 18:24, said:

If you have finished at least 8 tricks when you run out of time, the system will finish the hand for you and assign you a score. If you have not finished at least 8 tricks, everyone gets average.

You played this hand in your tournament just before the one we are talking about. Since the hand ended before 8 tricks were completed, everyone got average:

---

I did play the hand the tournment before - and in fact that was Ave - but it was Ave not hurting me but it says nothing about Ave's hurting

And the "8 tricks rule" seems stupid.

[jazzek]

barmar, on 2014-October-15, 09:46, said:

Yeah, that's me, but I haven't been on OKbridge in years.

It was my great day, I have won a tournament which was played once a week maybe. And first table was 'barmar' and >okbridge founder<
And this first table was 3DX

[jazzek]

The 8 tricks Law

means

if you are losing try to slow the game

[Bbradley62]

Not being part of the development team, I suspect they chose 8 tricks because that's a reasonable point at which four robots can be expected to complete the hand without too much deviation.

For hands terminated before 8 tricks, it would be more accurate (though more cumbersome to program and implement) to have 3 possible outcomes:

• I win the rest of the tricks
  
• I lose the rest of the tricks
  
• I get 50% of matchpoints

My score would be 50%, but never less than (2) above and never more than (1) above. So, if I'm in a grand and have already lost a trick, and no one else in my seat goes down, I should get nailed. One problem with this is that the score cannot be determined until after all rounds have been played, because until that point it won't be clear what is above 50% and what is below 50%. It may also have recursiveness issues, but I don't want to think about it that hard. Since EFAF is not a serious event, I wouldn't expect anything complicated to be implemented.

[jazzek]

Bbradley62, on 2014-October-19, 08:26, said:

Not being part of the development team, I suspect they chose 8 tricks because that's a reasonable point at which four robots can be expected to complete the hand without too much deviation.

For hands terminated before 8 tricks, it would be more accurate (though more cumbersome to program and implement) to have 3 possible outcomes:

• I win the rest of the tricks
  
• I lose the rest of the tricks
  
• I get 50% of matchpoints

My score would be 50%, but never less than (2) above and never more than (1) above. So, if I'm in a grand and have already lost a trick, and no one else in my seat goes down, I should get nailed. One problem with this is that the score cannot be determined until after all rounds have been played, because until that point it won't be clear what is above 50% and what is below 50%. It may also have recursiveness issues, but I don't want to think about it that hard. Since EFAF is not a serious event, I wouldn't expect anything complicated to be implemented.

As far as I know the robots can complete the hands in any trick. And I think that if player can not complete the hand it should be completed by the robots. I think of Deep Finesse as robots but I assume that robots means exactly the same. Then if auction is completed than the result depends on human players but when they refuse to complete the hand, the robots knowing 4 hands can easily complete it any time and I do not think 8 tricks Law should be in charge. Just let the play to go on! And with justice for all.

Jacek Zwolinski - jazzek on bbo, jazzek on okbridge (it was close to May 1995 barmar)

[jazzek]

And I was dissapointed when I could not ask for help a judge as in not automated tournments. I think it is just another argument for automatic completing boards.

[hrothgar]

Why do you need validation from an external director?
It's not like anyone looks at these scores or cares who wins one of these crapshoots.

What do you think that escalating this issue real does?
At the end of the day, if you believe that your score should be high, pretend that your score is higher...

As for the rest of us, its not as if we care one way or another.

[barmar]

jazzek, on 2014-October-21, 14:37, said:

As far as I know the robots can complete the hands in any trick.

While they could do so, that's not how we set up these tournaments. If the hand is cancelled too early, we don't use the robots because there are too many opportunities for human players to act differently from robots; so we just assign Average. But if we're close to the end of the hand, the robot play should be pretty close to the likely human play, so we let them complete the hand.

We chose 8 tricks as the cut-off point for this.

[jazzek]

hrothgar, on 2014-October-21, 15:06, said:

Why do you need validation from an external director?
It's not like anyone looks at these scores or cares who wins one of these crapshoots.

What do you think that escalating this issue real does?
At the end of the day, if you believe that your score should be high, pretend that your score is higher...

As for the rest of us, its not as if we care one way or another.

It is normal that if you play a board and it can not be finished normally you expect that the result will be fair.

And these crapshoots are part of my game so maybe are parts of me so maybe you realy hurt me?

So in normal tournaments you can always ask TD to find your result and change it but in Automated Free Fun you can not.

[jazzek]

barmar, on 2014-October-21, 15:13, said:

While they could do so, that's not how we set up these tournaments. If the hand is cancelled too early, we don't use the robots because there are too many opportunities for human players to act differently from robots; so we just assign Average. But if we're close to the end of the hand, the robot play should be pretty close to the likely human play, so we let them complete the hand.

We chose 8 tricks as the cut-off point for this.

And this why I ask for change.
It is only an idea that before trick 8 we do this an after trick 8 we do that.
And what if this is 1 trick cut-off?
Did you make any trials or even assessment?
It is just that one man think that 8 tricks is OK.

And this assumption that robots play close to humans in the ending is not clear for me.
I think that robots play just as bad as humans and in every trick.

[jazzek]

jazzek, on 2014-October-23, 17:38, said:

And this why I ask for change.
It is only an idea that before trick 8 we do this an after trick 8 we do that.
And what if this is 1 trick cut-off?
Did you make any trials or even assessment?
It is just that one man think that 8 tricks is OK.

And this assumption that robots play close to humans in the ending is not clear for me.
I think that robots play just as bad as humans and in every trick.

And I do not understand what is the problem.
And here we say Automated Free Bridge.
so make this Automated and not that after 8 trick it is automated.

[barmar]

jazzek, on 2014-October-24, 16:53, said:

And I do not understand what is the problem.
And here we say Automated Free Bridge.
so make this Automated and not that after 8 trick it is automated.

"Automated" refers to the fact that there's no director making rulings, everything is automatic -- slow players are replaced with robots, and the hand is finished when time runs out. Before trick 8 it automatically assigns average, after trick 8 it finishes the hand with GIB.