[wank]

opps silent
1s-2d-2s-3nt

what does this show in terms of spades?

i should have said in a 2/1 context, but as gnasher used to say in his signature, it's only 2/1ers who don't feel the need to mention system in their posts.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2014-October-01, 17:41, said:

opps silent
1s-2d-2s-3nt

what does this show in terms of spades?

Isn't this very much related to which system you are playing and how many diamonds 2♦ showed? But I will respond in the system that I play, which is considered natural system, so called 2/1.

Everyone has their own choice of course but I prefer 2♠ to show 6 most of the time, unless 2NT rebid by opener seems like to wrongside the contract badly ( for example AKJxx xxx KJ xxx is a 2♠ for me but AJxxx Qxx Kx Qxx is a 2 NT)

Let's assume that I play what popularity plays and 2♠ does not mean 6 card and made often by 5 cards, then I think it's responder's responsibility to cater for the 6 card possibility and seek for it if he believes we may belong to a 6-2 fit. Thus 3 NT to me means he is;

a-Short in spades
b-if doubleton, not interested in playing a 6-2 fit at all.

[the hog]

wank, on 2014-October-01, 17:41, said:

opps silent
1s-2d-2s-3nt

what does this show in terms of spades?

Not much in S for me. It shows 5 decent Ds and about 13-14 points with nearly all the points in the off suits. Maybe you have Jx in S at best.

[aguahombre]

the hog, on 2014-October-01, 19:31, said:

Not much in S for me. It shows 5 decent Ds and about 13-14 points with nearly all the points in the off suits. Maybe you have Jx in S at best.

We don't use "fast arrival" with our jumps to notrump, so 13-14 or 18-19 would have bid 2NT. Hence 15-17 for the 3NT rebid by responder. Less than 13 would not have forced to game on the previous round.

[mike777]

typical hand might be:


x..KQx...KQJxx...Kxxx

with more I might start with 2nt over 2s

[gszes]

Fast arrival here should show max of around (a not control rich) 15 AND
exactly two spades with more power use 2n to give opener another chance
to show spade length since I play the version where 2s does not show
extra length merely an inability to do something more useful.

[Jinksy]

I've been trying it out as decent S support (typically 3), a minimum GF, and something resembling stops in the other two suits.

So it's both a) a hand that would like to be able to bid 3N as a suggestion to play at some stage, but might not have the option to after raising Ss (when 3N would be Serious/Frivolous), and b) a hand which, having described itself in such detail, will often not be left to play the final contract.

It hasn't come up much yet, nor contrived/precluded any significant results, so still gathering data and experiences.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2014-October-01, 18:32, said:

Isn't this very much related to which system you are playing and how many diamonds 2♦ showed? But I will respond in the system that I play, which is considered natural system, so called 2/1.

Everyone has their own choice of course but I prefer 2♠ to show 6 most of the time, unless 2NT rebid by opener seems like to wrongside the contract badly ( for example AKJxx xxx KJ xxx is a 2♠ for me but AJxxx Qxx Kx Qxx is a 2 NT)

Let's assume that I play what popularity plays and 2♠ does not mean 6 card and made often by 5 cards, then I think it's responder's responsibility to cater for the 6 card possibility and seek for it if he believes we may belong to a 6-2 fit. Thus 3 NT to me means he is;

a-Short in spades
b-if doubleton, not interested in playing a 6-2 fit at all.

I think concentrating on spades is wrong.
Fast arrival is a poor concept when partner is neither limited in strength nor distribution.
The question is what should be the difference between 2NT and 3NT when partner rebids his major or a suit at the two level?
Reaching 6NT when both sides have about a king more than their bidding suggests so far is difficult in 2/1.
Neither side has enough to go beyond game.
So 3NT should show about 15(+) to 18(-) and likely a doubleton spade, slightly less with fitting honors in partner's suit(s), a good diamond suit and good controls.
The question is not choice of games but level

Rainer Herrmann

[P_Marlowe]

2 spades.

With an unbal. hand responder can bid something else,
with 3 spades he can raise.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[wank]

interesting. so assuming you have the values and outside stops to jump to 3nt, but only a singleton spade, you're presumably bidding 2nt. do you then have to press on to 4nt to get your values across? this is starting to get a little high with say 16 opposite 10.

i would prefer, like mrace, for a 2nd round jump to 3nt to deny as much as a decent doubleton and let me offload all my hands in range.

[helene_t]

15-17 balanced. Maybe a stiff honour in spades in a 5431 hand is acceptable

[jallerton]

wank, on 2014-October-01, 17:41, said:

opps silent
1s-2d-2s-3nt

what does this show in terms of spades?

i should have said in a 2/1 context, but as gnasher used to say in his signature, it's only 2/1ers who don't feel the need to mention system in their posts.

On what hand types does Opener bid 2♠ in your system?

If 2♠ is wide ranging in terms of strength and distribution then 3NT has to show a fairly precise hand type, or else Opener will have to guess what to do over it.

[wank]

jallerton, on 2014-October-03, 15:20, said:

On what hand types does Opener bid 2♠ in your system?

If 2♠ is wide ranging in terms of strength and distribution then 3NT has to show a fairly precise hand type, or else Opener will have to guess what to do over it.

yes 2s is any 6 spades, spades and clubs too weak for 3c or a balanced hand not ideal for NTs, presumably 11-14.

[fromageGB]

wank, on 2014-October-01, 17:41, said:

1s-2d-2s-3nt
what does this show in terms of spades?
i should have said in a 2/1 context

wank, on 2014-October-03, 05:22, said:

interesting. so assuming you have the values and outside stops to jump to 3nt, but only a singleton spade, you're presumably bidding 2nt. do you then have to press on to 4nt to get your values across? this is starting to get a little high with say 16 opposite 10.

If you are opening 1♠ on a 10 count, then perhaps you should consider raising your requirements for a 2/1 so that a "strong" responder is more than 16, as it needs 14+ for a 2/1?

[aguahombre]

fromageGB, on 2014-October-04, 09:00, said:

If you are opening 1♠ on a 10 count, then perhaps you should consider raising your requirements for a 2/1 so that a "strong" responder is more than 16, as it needs 14+ for a 2/1?

We don't extend the "modern paradox" adjustment up to 14+ for a game force to accommodate the 10-point openings. The ten's which are opened 1M look like 11's or 12's anyway.

[rhm]

wank, on 2014-October-03, 05:22, said:

interesting. so assuming you have the values and outside stops to jump to 3nt, but only a singleton spade, you're presumably bidding 2nt. do you then have to press on to 4nt to get your values across? this is starting to get a little high with say 16 opposite 10.

i would prefer, like mrace, for a 2nd round jump to 3nt to deny as much as a decent doubleton and let me offload all my hands in range.

When I have a small singleton spade I will indeed rarely bid 3NT.
For once I am looking for delayed support or a new suit bid, when I have 12 cards outside of spades. So 2NT is fine.
To suggest a notrump slam thereafter I will usually require more, since spades might not be a source of tricks.

Should partner raise 2NT, 4NT will show 18-19. With 15-17 and a singleton spade I am happy to pass 3NT .
Even if we are close to the required strength for 6NT, the contract will be a struggle with no source of tricks.

Rainer Herrmann

[cherdano]

rhm, on 2014-October-02, 02:08, said:

I think concentrating on spades is wrong.
Fast arrival is a poor concept when partner is neither limited in strength nor distribution.
The question is what should be the difference between 2NT and 3NT when partner rebids his major or a suit at the two level?
Reaching 6NT when both sides have about a king more than their bidding suggests so far is difficult in 2/1.
Neither side has enough to go beyond game.
So 3NT should show about 15(+) to 18(-) and likely a doubleton spade, slightly less with fitting honors in partner's suit(s), a good diamond suit and good controls.
The question is not choice of games but level

Rainer Herrmann

I agree with everything Rainer wrote.
The reverse agreement, aka first arrival - bidding 3NT with a minimum balanced hand, and 2NT-3NT with stronger hands - does not work as well. When we have a minimum with extra shape (say 1=4=5=3) it is extremely helpful to be able to temporize with 2NT. If partner then bids 3♣ or 3♠ we do not want 3♠ to promise extras. Extras with a similar shape are a problem too, but they are not as frequent, and they are more likely to have other options.

[mikeh]

At the risk of seeming to merely reiterate Rainer's posts, I think it important to think about the implications of other sequences that have the same beginning. In fact, I think I do go somewhat beyond what Rainer has written.

I see 3N as promising xx in spades tho Qx or Jx are fine as well.

Why?

1. With a stiff, we are almost always going to have some interest in another suit. Even 1=4=5=3, which is the shape where we least have such interest, we will often want to cater to partner being 5-5 blacks, too weak to have bid 3♣ over 2♦. I am assuming we aren't so old-school as to open 1♣ (which strangely enough I do in my current partnership)

With any other shape, with a stiff spade, we will have 4+ clubs or 6+ diamonds and with 15+ hcp we'd always, it seems to me, want to give partner a chance to pattern out. While 3N may end up as our contract most of the time, partner may have extras and be 6=3 in the pointeds, as an example.

2. When we hold 15-17, we are not ourselves in the slam zone but we know that partner may have extras. As Rainer correctly observes, 16 opposite 16 (or so) are problem hands for 2/1 when neither can risk going beyond game yet slam is good, on the mesh of the cards.

While for me, and inferentially for the OP, 2♠ is far from implying 6 cards, it doesn't exactly deny 6 either, and when opener has extras, such that slam is possible opposite 15-17, it may be extremely important....may be essential....for opener to be able to count tricks. Thus AQJxxx opposite x or xx is an insoluble problem. Opposite x, the suit is crap for slam purposes, while opposite xx it rates to deliver 5+ tricks a substantial part of the time....it is slam positive while opposite a stiff, it is slam negative.

It seems to me to be nuts to use a space-consuming, slam-possible move by responder and not tell opener whether his putative trick source is likely to be slam useful or slam hopeless. This could be accomplished by specifying 3N shows a stiff, but this comes at the cost of the factors described in 1.


3. On occasion, opener will have to make a choice of games decision. Some players may find this counter-intuitive but on many hands with 6 spades, and a minimum, it is better to play 4♠ on the 6-1 than it is to play 3N, and vice versa....play notrump with the 6-2. This sort of decision is very specific to the exact hand, but my point is that opener is better able to make this decision when he or she knows whether partner will table a stiff or doubleton.