[csdenmark]

This topic has by a mistake been started in another thread. I think it is important and I therefore move it to here.
____________________________________________________
Psyche - how to handle

I normally dont use psyches, I simply have problems to know what to do.

Once I made an overcall in opps. suit with void. I dont remember the outcome any longer - but I remember we had a good time.

I like to test that a bit more - please help me how to do things correct. In face to face bridge - it is completely up to partner I think - but in a system of self-alert, I need to make the right decision myself.

In system "KS" - Edgar Kaplan describes disciplined psyches to be used:

- 4+ cards
- 3-6 HcP
- No Ace or King in side suit

Unless partner makes a Jump shift=GF, pass is mandatory as rebid.

Playing Precision(11-15, 5cd MAJOR - normally not an alert-requering bid).

a) If I alert the bid - it is no longer a psyche

If I need to alert - what to state: Normal meaning(deliberate lie) or the real thing(then no longer a psyche)

If you help me here - you will have the option of more psyche's from me in the future - how about that!

Yours Claus - csdenmark


____________________________________________________Below the response from Rado:

Hi Claus,

Your questions touch very difficult matter.

In general it's not allowed to psyche with conventional bids. For example to open 1C strong(16+) with 0 or 3 or 8 points, or to open Flanerry on 3Sp3He7Di0Cl for example. For more detailed answers and rules we might ask some experienced tournament directors I think.

Regards, Rado

____________________________________________________Below my reply:

Thank you Rado - as always a qualified answer!

I mentioned a psyche once did well overcalling with a void - all laughing - a good joke were the comments I remember. Opps was experts - and I therefore assume - able to deal with all kind of funny stuff.

I really would appreciate if some experienced tournament director, like you propose, would make a statement. Maybe Fred too - this has also something to do with how to apply to good manners here and in the same time to be able to carry out the full register of the game.

Under no cirstumstances my agenda will ever be to mislead anybody or to cheat.

Yes you are right Rado, playing precision, opening 1C holding a yarborough - how to handle?

That will be alertable! What to alert:

A) 16+,any distribution
Yarborough - oho

Yours Claus - csdenmark

____________________________________________________

Above texts moved from another thread. I have deleted my contributions from the other thread.

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[inquiry]

Hi Claus,

It is obviously totally inappropriate to alert your own bid as a "psyche", besides, what use would their be to psyche if the opponents knew and partner didn't that it was one.

The purpose of an ALERT is to share with your opponents the "conventional" normal meaning of a bid. That is, to let them know what you and your partnership agreement is. This is like the stock market, there is not suppose to be "insider trading"... all your bidding agreement (and carding and leading agreements) are suppose to be shared with your opponents. The alerts are just the mechanism to make sure they know what you are "suppose" to be telling your partner about your hand.

The following is my understanding of alerting and as such, or course, maybe wrong. I profess no great insight into how the rules are specifically stated by various ruling bodies. Now to an example... assume for instance, that your agreement is to overcall 1NT when the opponents open 1S with 4 card hearts and some 5 card minor, and you decide to do this with 9 clubs and a heart void, you should still ALERT the bid as showing "4h, 5m". That is because this is what your partner will think you hold. Don't alert and say "this is a psyche".

Now, does it feel "yucky" to tell the opponents one thing and actually hold something else? On the surface if feels yucky, but look at it this way. Every single bid you make, your opponents have a right to know what your partner expects you to hold. Your responsibility is to share this information with them (what your partner expects..that is, what your agreement is). For instance if you "make a splinter bid" in as suit in which you hold 3 small cards as a tactical bid, you still ALERT that just as if you had a singleton or void. They probably would assume it was a splinter anyway, but as long as your PARTNER takes it for a singleton or void. Remember, it is your responsibility to share what your AGREEMENT is, not what you actually hold.

I can imagine that after a pyche self-alerted splinter where the defense goes horribly wrong by believing that you had shortness in the suit, there is a opportunity for long and prolonged questions of your ethics and some name calling. I guess I could understand the hard feeling this might generate in opponents who think that you alerted specifically to "trick them." But this is not the case... you made the splinter bid to trick them. With or without the alert, if the bid is suppose to be a splinter (your agreement), they have the right to know.

Because of these hard feeling, I tend not to psyche on line any bid that requires an alert unless playing against good players who would "understand" the alerting requirement.

Perhaps Rado's suggestion not to psyche any conventional bid is reasonable... but I think my memory serves me right that you can't psyche any conventional strong/forcing bid. I think psyching flannery is ok.

Ben

[Rado]

Hi all,
Further Ben's good article, I have to add just that I'm sure psyching with 1Cl strong, or 2Cl strong is forbidden all over the world.
On the other hand bidding Splinter on xx while having side singleton/void is very commonly used psyche.
Another good exampe is bidding 1Sp-pass-1NT forcing
with xxxx, xxx, xxx, xxx - many times presented by Zia, Chagash,...........
2nd widely spread is 1He-pass-1Sp - some top Polsih players bid 1Sp near automatic LOL

Best regards, Rado

[csdenmark]

Hi Ben

Thank you for your response - it looks like you are not quite sure how to handle either!

I understand you in that way - in the self-alerting-box - I need to state the partnership-agreement acc. to cc and not the actual holding. That's exactly what gives me moral problems - I am conveying a deliberate lie. Much easier playing face to face - then it was partners problem, and no really problem at all - and certainly no deliberate lie.

In the bid I told about earlier the overcall was not alert-requering. Funny my void suit was split evenly among the 3 others. You see partner raised my bid - not knowing anything of course - opps had fit in the suit but didn't know whether they bid the suit or cue of the suit. I think I got the idea for that because my standard defense really prescribes initial overcall of a real suit as exclusion bid. Playing that with a partner - the bid is alert-requering as single/void of course - no problem with that!

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[Mike]

Hi All,
I think this thread went into fine details in friendly circumstances instead of dealing with the basic questions:

Permit blatant psyche with bad intentions made by mentally sick people in order to disturb or destruct the game of the three other unsuspecting players, or not?

Does it belong to the rules of the site?

What to do if it happens?

My solution is to mark the guy, leave the table and avoid any other encounter.

Is there anything else that can be done?
Cheers,
MK

[csdenmark]

No sorry Mike!

The aim of this topic is NOT how to deal with rude, sick or other kind of specialities of mankind. They are simple to handle - no need to discuss such!

It is really about how to deal with a serious and important part of the game. And it is about the guidelines for such, especially the different way psyches have to be handled in online bridge compared to face to face bridge.

It is about the laws and about ethics!

Yours Claus - csdenmark

[hrothgar]

Quote

Permit blatant psyche with bad intentions made by mentally sick people in order to disturb or destruct the game of the three other unsuspecting players, or not?

Does it belong to the rules of the site?

What to do if it happens?

My solution is to mark the guy, leave the table and avoid any other encounter.

Is there anything else that can be done?
Cheers,
MK

I am somewhat confused about your posting.
It sounds like you are insinuating that pysches should be banned by BBO.

All this talk about:

"bad intentions"
"mentally sick people"
Disturbing or destorying the game of "unsupecting players"

Pyches are very much a legal part of the game of bridge.
I readily confess that I psyche calls on occassion.
What's more, I do so in the belief that this will improve my score. [Otherwise, whats the point?]

>My solution is to mark the guy, leave the table and avoid any other encounter.
>Is there anything else that can be done?

Learn the rules of the game?

You seem to think that psyches rude and offensive.
It decreases your enjoyment of the game.
Fine and dandy, except:

I think that walking out on a table is petty and immature. It disrupts an ongoing game, and forces everyone else to wait for a new player to join. It reminds of behaviour that is roundly condemmed at the level of 4th graders. "I'm going to take my toys and go home"

It seems that we are at an impass. I will merely note the following:

Law 73 E of the Laws of Bridge clearly states:

E. Deception
A player may appropriately attempt to deceive an opponent through a call or play(so long as the deception is not protected by concealed partnership understanding or experience). It is entirely appropriate to avoid giving information to the opponents by making all calls and plays in unvarying tempo and manner.

[inquiry]

I too like to psyche (perhaps more than occassionally). It is part of the game, and picking the right spot to do it is important as a pscyhe is a dangerous weapon (well some are much safer than others).

Clearly Mike was on the wrong track about leaving the table and that the person making such bids are just down right evil.

However, if you have ever sat down at a table where one person pscyhes basically four hands out of every ten, you will quickly join mike in thinking this detracts from the game. I would say that my average frequency of blantant pscyhes are about once or twice every 30 hands or so, something like that.

Ben

[mishovnbg]

Hi, Claus. Most of posts here discuss "To bluff or not to bluff" and didn't answer to your question - how to handle it. Here is my method:
1. My dbl over opp intervention is NOT take out, it show "some" in opp suit and normally balanced, semi-balsnced or missfit hand with NO singleton/void in opp suit. With no enough hcp for higher contract ( game ) i just pass ( if first bid after opp opening no more then 18 hcp). After dbl with opp suit i rebid (if opp passed):
1. Rebid in opp suit: 5+ cards, gf (not cue bid - with such hand i do it directly)
2. Rebid with jump in side suit: 2 suiter, 5+ in opp suit - 5+ in jumped suit
3. Rebid with jump to game in opp suit: Long and good suit (6+, 3H), to play.
Examples:

(p)- p -(1SP)-DBL
(p)- 2CL-p -?:
2SP: 5+ sp, 18-21 hcp, nf
3DI/HE: 5+SP-5+DI/HE, 18-21 hcp, rf
3SP: 6+SP, good, gf
4SP: 6+SP, good, nf

(1HE)-p-(1SP)-DBL and rebids as above

(1HE)-DBL-(1SP)-?
DBL: 4+SP, 6+hcp
2SP: 5+SP, 7-11hcp
3SP: 6+SP, 7-11hcp

Post here your questions if you like and may be i have solution for you, friend.
Misho

[dogsbreath]

In UK tournament play (ie MP's) psyches must be reported to TD. The idea is that frequent psychers become known and are subject to score adjustment. Clearly this is not practical for on-line play. At my table y can bid what y like as long as no undisclosed p'ship agreement. However i think it unfair or undesirable to psyche against weaker opponents. Surely common sense can rule. Also i think must NOT alert a psyche Rgds Dogsbreath

[the hog]

However i think it unfair or undesirable to psyche against weaker opponents.

It's not unfair as psyching is a legal part of the game; I would however say that it is unsporting to psyche against weaker players, especially on line and in non serious events. In the Nationals or other major events on the other hand, anything goes - weak player or expert. Mike's attitude is, of course, very unfortunate.

Psyches do not need to be reported here, but should be recorded. The reason is not so much for score adjustment as to determine whether a partnership has developed a pattern to such an extent that it has become an agreement. I must admit I don't understand the comment re alerting a psyche; how can a psyche be alerted? What you might alert is a possible partnership understanding eg
1H (X) 1S* - alerted as "Has been known to psyche this."

I well remember one pair who psyched a 3NT response to a pre empt with rubbish and a bit in support so often that the matter became a standing joke.

In another vein - we had a very interesting situation occur in the Nationals a couple of weeks ago playing against a pro and a weak sponsor. They had decided that when nv they would disrupt our strong auctions any way they could playing what is commmonly called "suction" in the States. Now as far I am concerned you can play whatever you like, even totally random overcalls, provided that a) you pre alert your methods and you don't misdescribe them. Their "2 suited overcalls" ranged from a 4333 0 count to total misdescriptions when the sponsor forgot how to show certain hand shapes or just "bid something because she had to bid". None of this was pre alerted, of course. These are controlled psyches I guess. As you might expect, procedural penalties were handed out.

Ron

[csdenmark]

Thank you very much for your kind contributions

I think I now have got the answers to handle a delicate subject correct.

• Not to psyche against weak opponents
  
• Give the explanation(deliberate lie) as your partnership agreements prescribe
  
• If a convention card is loaded it is mandatory to repeat that info and nothing else
  
• Not to psyche in an alert-requering bid

Thank you - yours Claus - csdenmark

[mycroft]

Very interesting discussion. I am a psycher - in fact, before I started playing EHAA, I was an inveterate psycher. Now if I want to mess with opponents' auctions, I just play EHAA - and will fight very strongly against that particular arrow being removed from my, or anyone else's, bow.

However, I have had a concern for quite a while about the common "don't psyche here" ideas. Not because they're wrong from an ethics standpoint or a bridge outcome standpoint. However, Simon said over 50 years ago that experts psyching against weaker players is a losing proposition, because they expect to win by just playing down the middle against the palookas. However, the weaker players should try the unusual - overcalls on Txxx, preempts on weak 6-card suits, outright psyches, and on the other side, unnatural caution, hoping for bad breaks - because they're slated to lose by playing "straight up" anyway, so go ahead, mix it up.

But I have heard some very nasty comments made about psyches and psychers - and can guess at at least one more, given Fred's patient attempt to explain during the USBC Vugraph - and I think I can understand why - and part of it is this "psyching against weak players isn't cricket" attitude.

Frankly, almost nobody is going to think of lying as a deliberate tactic on their own, especially weaker players (whether they're new or Life Novices). And if nobody is going to psyche against them, for whatever reason (and Big NCBO looking over people's shoulder, saying "you shouldn't do that to Flight C's" is certainly one), they're going to go for a *long* time before realizing that it's possible, never mind legal.

So, what happens is that we protect the new players from this tactic, and they learn to be pretty good players. Then, suddenly, they get to the point where they are fair game, and someone throws a psych at them; I'm not surprised at all that people think it's "cheating", and expect and do extreme measures.

Face it, psyching is a legitimate tactic, and like any legitimate action, has defence. And I believe that history has proven that the defences are very effective - that psyching is a losing tactic in the long run (I also believe, however, that having a *reputation* as a psycher is a winning tactic in the long run, and if I have to pay a few dues to keep that reputation, I will. Generating that reputation is much harder in a large, world-wide community, of course). But they only way to learn that you need such a defence, never mind develop one, is to have it happen to you.

Long post, but here's the question: how do we protect the weak (which I do think is done for valid reasons) while not opening them up to the eventual nasty blindside? In addition, how do we minimize the natural reaction of people when it does happen?

Michael.

[csdenmark]

I really like that Michael!

I am sorry I am unable to qualify your argumentation. I simply dont have much experience in this area. - But your points looks very good to me and I recognize the arguments I use for opps. when I play pass-systems. There opps. also feel they are cheated - and I encourage them to instead to see such strange features as an option for them to have some experience with new features.

Some accept this argument and some even are more interested to look into such themselves.

I think you give attention to an important matter, to generate defense against features people dont know or don't want to use themselves. A strong argument for psyche against weaker opponents too I think.

I have no idea how to create a defense against psyches. I assume a feature for discovering a psyche before it is too late will need to be a part of such. I would like some of our expert's to come up with something.

Lately I have studied several cc's of international champion pairs. Those I have seen have no such defense and their cc normally states they rarely psyches. Maybe that's the reason.

I don't know EHAA, but I have the impression it is basic standard classic. If I am wrong in that Michael, how about psyche in alert-requiring bids?

Thank you for your contribution Michael - really refreshing!

[mycroft]

Note: Offtopic - EHAA discussion.

Claus: yes, "Standard" EHAA is very natural, 4-card Major, 1950s style (and frankly, that's still one of the most fun ways to play it.) However, there are three "small" changes that make it totally different.

1) 10-12 NTs, all the time.
2) 4-suit weak 2s that are "6-12 HCP, 5+cards, no longer suit" and *mandatory*. Trumps are 86432? Open. You're 6-6? Open 2 of whichever suit you feel comfortable with. You have AKQT8532 and out? Open 2.
Anything in between? Open 2.
3) Therefore, 1 bids are *sound* and *unlimited*.

Why has it cut down on my psyching? Well, when you *systemically* open 50+% of hands with 1NT+, not counting all your sensible 1 bids, you don't get "oh, no, they're going to bid undisturbed to their best contract *again*" nights. Basically, most of the times I'd be tempted to psych, I have a *systemic* opener, and partner remains in the loop.

I am world-renowned as a bad cardholder. I play EHAA so I can say something besides "pass" all night.

As far as psyching Alertable bids, I have not much experience with that, given the ACBL's rule about psyching *conventional* first-round calls (note: not the same as Alertable). So I'm not sure I can help.

Re: strong pass systems - I do believe that is one thing that totally changes bidding and needs preparation; if I played one, I'd have a prepared defence for the opponents. I have nothing against light openers per se, but when pass becomes strong, you now are "overcalling" a pass, and playing your standard constructive system is unreasonable; if the fert is high, then the opponents only even get a chance to use their system exactly half the time. And pass is almost never strong enough to be comfortable using your "strong club defence".

Michael.

[Mike]

Seemingly this thread is going off-track again.

Certain big ego individuals are trying to make bad attitude be acceptable by illogical or fals arguments as present day's lawyers do.

I call a spade spade. Psyching in ad hock partnershyps is arrogant, stupid and as a minimum bad manner. Usually morons do it.

Characteristic to the psychers and their defenders how they turn simple statements, like "I will leave the table of a psycher" into a deplorable act. Presuming it happens during play, which is against the rules of the site. That is a good indicator that basically psychers have bad intentions.

In a game that is overregulated with alerts and self alerts, tempo regulations, etc. intentionally breaking the expected behaviour with mean intentions is unacceptable. I repeat, mentally sick people do it.

There is a big difference between bluffing in poker or in any other card game where it is natural, and the so called psych in bridge. There is a big difference to trick a friendly company around a card table with loughter, or do it with complete strangers in order to upset them. There is a big difference of using psych as a legitimate tool in the game, and having destrucktive intentions.

If psychers were having any integrity would mark in their profile that thay may psych. People with good intention will do that. In this case nobody could complain. But in this case the attacker could loose the surprise effect, so players with maligne attitude will not mark themselves. We have to mark them. I certainly will.
MK

[csdenmark]

Quote

Seemingly this thread is going off-track again.

Certain big ego individuals are trying to make bad attitude be acceptable by illogical or fals arguments as present day's lawyers do.

I call a spade spade. Psyching in ad hock partnershyps is arrogant, stupid and as a minimum bad manner. Usually morons do it.

Mike I really hope this thread is not going off-track and I don't think so. Please let me quote an earlier answer from me to you:

Quote

No sorry Mike!

The aim of this topic is NOT how to deal with rude, sick or other kind of specialities of mankind. They are simple to handle - no need to discuss such!

It is really about how to deal with a serious and important part of the game. And it is about the guidelines for such, especially the different way psyches have to be handled in online bridge compared to face to face bridge.

It is about the laws and about ethics!

Please note - the aim of this thread is still the same

[hrothgar]

Please don't feed the Trolls - It only encourages them.
If you ignore them, they tend to wander away.

[For those who are not used to Usenet slang. On occasion, newgroups and discussion forums are inviaded by individuals who want to create loud, controversial, and ultimately meaningless arguments. These individuals are referred to as "Trolls". Experience has demonstrated that Trolls thrive on attention and that the best course of action is to do nothing.]

I'm signing off from this thread.
I have nothing more to say.

[DrTodd13]

If I am fooled by a well planned psyche then bravo to the opponents.
If they psyche a strong opening on me and it tricks me then I applaud them.
IMHO, the rules about not psyching conventional openings is total BS.
So long as the hand and the situation calls for a psyche then I don't care
how frequently the opps do it. If they are behind in a match, then I expect
them to try to create swings. There should be an art to psyching. What
I totally disagree with are random bids. We were playing a forcing pass
system on BBO one time and this guy accused us of psyching on every
bid even though we explained every bid fully. So, he decided he would
psyche on EVERY hand. Key lesson...random bridge is not enjoyable.
Psyching frequently just to see what happens or disturb the field because
your session is in the toilet already is bad. I don't think this type of
psyching is frequent and it isn't a problem but if it does occur it should be
punished.

[Wayne]

Quote

Long post, but here's the question: how do we protect the weak (which I do think is done for valid reasons) while not opening them up to the eventual nasty blindside? In addition, how do we minimize the natural reaction of people when it does happen?

Michael.

I protect or attempt to protect my learners by exposing them to psyches as a natural part of the game in an introductory set of lessons.

This is usually not a pre-planned part of a lesson rather a natural brief discussion to the almost inevitable question about what happens if you do not have your bid.

Answer: Nothing but you and your partner will probably get to the wrong contract. Sometimes you will benefit. Good luck. You can even deliberately 'lie' to try and deceive the opponents ....


Wayne