[awm]

I'm interested in methods to show a limit raise in auctions starting:

1M - (2m) - 2M

without committing to the four-level. It seems like 2NT is available as a (mostly) free call, but using that to show a limit raise runs the risk of wrong-siding a 3NT contract (which is probably still our most likely game). Some alternate possibilities include using double to show the limit raise and 2NT as the two unbid suits, or using 2NT to show a weak raise with 3m being a limit raise.

Anyone have experience with or opinions of any of these methods?

Another similar auction would be 1♠-2♥-2♠, where considerations are a bit different (since now we will virtually never want to play in 3NT when partner has a limit raise) but it would be nice to be able to use the same method.

[Kungsgeten]

I use 2NT to show limit+ values, but I guess you could use transfers, starting with double? Perhaps:

1♥-2♦-2♥;
Dbl = Spades
2♠ = NT or clubs
2NT = Natural
3♣ = Weak or GF raise
3♦ = Limit

1♠-2♣-2♠;
Dbl = NT, weak club raise or GF raise
2NT = Natural
3♣ = Limit
3♦/♥ = Natural

You lose the option of showing the two other suits though. Perhaps 2NT could be used for this, but then you might be wrongsiding again.

[awm]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-September-29, 00:17, said:

You lose the option of showing the two other suits though. Perhaps 2NT could be used for this, but then you might be wrongsiding again.

The natural 2NT call just doesn't seem very useful to me. You're not usually going to make 3NT on straight power, and the hand type where you don't have a fit for partner and you don't have length in the other major seems fairly uncommon.

Losing the ability to show the unbid major seems extremely expensive, on the other hand.

The problem with 2NT being the other two suits (I think) is not so much wrong-siding (because 3NT is not so likely here when you don't have a fit) as that you can't play in 2♠ over 2♥. And I don't want to play substantially different methods over 1♥-2♣-2♥ and 1♠-2♣-2♠. I guess this constrains me to one of:

1. 2NT is limit raise
2. 2NT is weak raise, 3m is limit raise
3. Transfers from 2NT through 3m-1, with transfer-raise being weaker than direct raise.
4. As #3, but with transfer-raise being stronger than direct raise.

[karlson]

We play transfers from 2N to 3x-1. Seems to work ok, though as you say, there's a significant wrongsiding risk, both when 2n is a club raise and when it's a club suit. I suppose that always using 2n as a raise would be better in that respect -- you can always just go high and bid 3M if you're afraid of wrongsiding, and you haven't lost the ability to show your suit. Of course you would lose the other advantages of transfers, but so far I don't think we've had a single auction where fourth hand transferred and then bid again in this spot.

The auction that really convinced me of the need for some methods was the (1♠)-2♥-(2♠) one.

[Kungsgeten]

awm, on 2014-September-29, 19:17, said:

The natural 2NT call just doesn't seem very useful to me.

Oh, then I misunderstood the original post. I think your option 2 makes sense.

Another alternative, not listed, would be some kind of Lebensohl. Like:

2NT = Weak raise to 3-level or constructive new suit (overcaller bids 3♣ unless having a nice fit for clubs I guess)
Raise = Limit raise
3new = Forcing

[fromageGB]

Losing the ability to show a major may not be so important if you play Raptor 1NT overcall, the absence of which implies partner does not have 4 cards in the other major. If partner could have them, then I would not choose a method that gave up the ability to find it with a double (or agreed other equivalent).

Our agreements are that if it goes 1m (1M) ? then 2NT is natural, but not after (1M) 2m (2M) where they have supported the suit. In this case you can use transfers starting with 2NT, so you have 2 ways to bid 3m, directly or via a transfer, keeping a double as takeout. This is your option 4 in post #3, and it works happily for me.

[Kungsgeten]

fromageGB, on 2014-October-01, 10:18, said:

Losing the ability to show a major may not be so important if you play Raptor 1NT overcall

You could also play Canape Jump Overcalls:

(1m)-2M = 4 card major, 5+ other minor
(1M)-2oM = 4 card major, 5+ in a minor
(1♠)-1NT = 5+ hearts

[wank]

if the overcall's in diamonds use 3c as a cue raise. if the overcall's in clubs, just suck it up and cue 3 of opps' suit.

fwiw i also use 2c as the cuebid whenever available, in effect drury, this allows space for 2d as a unsure bid. there are obviously plenty of 1M overcalls which are perfectly reasonable but unwilling to go past the 2 level opposite a UCB. you can easily miss game due to the wide range of overcalls if both players have modest extras.