[Trick13]

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Matchpoints

1NT was 14-16.

How do you play 4NT?
Does it ask for the absolute top of your range or just the top half?
Do you like this ace-less hand with good intermediates?
I rebid 5NT passing it back to responder, but is there a more informative bid?
Do you play 1NT - 5NT meaning don't pass unless you are dead minimum.
When bidding NT we upgrade for 5-card suits and 10s and downgrade for bad honour combinations, and I think this is right for getting to 3NT but perhaps not best for bidding 6NT.

[billw55]

IMO 4NT should be a quantitative invitation to 6NT.

This hand has good features (spots) and bad (no aces, ♦QJ tight). On balance, I would pass 4NT. Not a fan of 5NT, I don't really see the point of reinviting.

[helene_t]

I would accept the invite with most 15 counts. Partner knows that I am much more likely to have 15 than 16 so if he needs 16 from me he wouldn't have bothered.

I would accept the invite with this hand although it is obviously close. ♦QJ are likely to be useful now that p didn't use Stayman. I can understand 5NT but I think that 5NT is better used for showing both minors. Maybe some clever meaning could be assigned to 5♥ and 5♠, though.

5NT from partner would have been forcing, asking me to bid 7 with a max and 6 with a min.

[whereagles]

I believe standard theory defines

1N-4N as an invite to 6, and
1N-5N as forcing to 6, inviting 7

What exactly constitutes an "invite" is open for discussion to partner. Usually people invite aggressively and accept conservatively, but an underbidder might think it the other way around.

[1eyedjack]

I would pass on the stated hand.

I have mixed feelings about the benefits of the quantitative 4N in this scenario.
On the one hand, there is a lot to be said for blasting contracts with minimal information leakage.
On the other hand, opener's distributional possibilities are quite widely defined, knowledge of which is seldom irrelevant in assessing both strain and level. Any sensible set of responses should be capable of investigating more slowly.

But as I say, at a cost of considerable information leakage.

[hrothgar]

5NT as a reinvite seems silly at best.
(I play it as showing values for slam, but asking for a 4 card minor)

Personally, I'd accept with this hand.

Look at the conditional probability that you hold a 16 count opposite an invite.
If you can't accept with a maxed out hand with lots of good intermediaries, you're never going to get to accept.

QJ tight in diamodns doesn't worry me much. Partner should have supporting honors and length in the suit.

[gehrhorn]

How do you play 4NT?
Invitational to 6NT. Here, probably showing around a balanced 17. I play 1NT 15-17, in which case it's probably a balanced 16.
Does it ask for the absolute top of your range or just the top half?
Top half would be the closer description. It asks to go to 6 with anything other than the bare minimum.
Do you like this ace-less hand with good intermediates?
I love to leave it at 4. I wouldn't bid 6NT. (It's unlikely, but we may be off 2 aces).
I rebid 5NT passing it back to responder, but is there a more informative bid?
In my partnership 5NT after 4NT is an invalid bid. I'm the captain now. My partner knows what I have and is issuing an invitation. I can accept or decline.
Do you play 1NT - 5NT meaning don't pass unless you are dead minimum.
I don't have an agreement here. I'd bid 6NT automatically.

[kenrexford]

As to what 4NT means, and as suggested earlier, there should be some pattern expectation as to the 4NT call.

Consider, for example, a reality that marginal 6NT contracts probably are less marginal if a 4-4 fit is found. Thus, as a general rule, you probably want to search for 4-4 fits along the way, if you can. You would normally expect, therefore, no 4-card majors for a 1NT-4NT sequence.

Additionally, if the partnership has a means of exploring for 4-card minor fits (e.g., MSS), you really start to tighten the hand up, as no hand exists with no 4-card suits.

Add into this the option of showing a minor somehow with, say, 5332 pattern and the long suit being a minor.

Puppet might also play a role if available.

If you assume the first two (Stayman and Minor Suit Stayman) but no good way to show a minor with 5332 pattern, then 4NT might typically show some 5332 hand with a minor.

If no MSS but a way to show long minors from 5332, then 1NT-4NT typically is 3334/3343/3244/2344.

Lots of permutations are possible. They key, though, when assessing a middling hand, and in discussion of follow-up calls by Opener, is to consider the pattern limitations on the 4NT call when assessing whether you like the between hand and then devising methods to cater for what Responder likely has.

As a simple example, if your options available mean that 1NT-4NT looks like 3334/3343, a tweener hand looks good with 2344/3244, because you have an assured minor fit and a probable ruffing value.

[jillybean]

Another twist and something you may want to discuss with partner is openers response other than 6N.
Some play opener accepts with a cue or response as if 4NT was ace asking.

[ggwhiz]

I get to accept conditionally with this. After 4nt we respond straight Aces to accept unless we are off two (5nt ends the auction then). After that, the 4nt bidder can bid 4-card suits up the line (as we do too) to check for a 4-4 fit or land in 6nt when we don't find one or just blast into 6nt as they choose.

With 2+ Aces, after 4nt I can go this route trying to land in a 4-4 instead of 6nt or blast into 6 of a 5-card suit if I have one expecting pard to convert to 6nt when appropriate.

Whatever you play, only having a choice of 6nt or pass over 4nt sucks.

[Trick13]

hrothgar, on 2014-September-17, 07:12, said:

Look at the conditional probability that you hold a 16 count opposite an invite.
If you can't accept with a maxed out hand with lots of good intermediaries, you're never going to get to accept.

You are right, with this hand our hcp expectation for opener is
Frequency :
12 - 9% (we upgrade for 5-card suits and 10s)
13 - 28%
14 - 36%
15 - 20%
16 - 7%
17 - <0%

hrothgar, on 2014-September-17, 07:12, said:

QJ tight in diamodns doesn't worry me much. Partner should have supporting honors and length in the suit.

I agree. Unfortunately in this case he had ♦AK tight.

kenrexford, on 2014-September-17, 14:17, said:

As to what 4NT means, and as suggested earlier, there should be some pattern expectation as to the 4NT call.

We had MSS available, and could handle a 5332 shape. Responder was 3=4=2=4, both 4-card suits being Qxxx.

ggwhiz, on 2014-September-17, 14:29, said:

I get to accept conditionally with this. After 4nt we respond straight Aces to accept unless we are off two (5nt ends the auction then). After that, the 4nt bidder can bid 4-card suits up the line (as we do too) to check for a 4-4 fit or land in 6nt when we don't find one or just blast into 6nt as they choose.

With 2+ Aces, after 4nt I can go this route trying to land in a 4-4 instead of 6nt or blast into 6 of a 5-card suit if I have one expecting pard to convert to 6nt when appropriate.

Whatever you play, only having a choice of 6nt or pass over 4nt sucks.

I like this. Would have saved us from 6NT missing two aces.

[mike777]

4nt=quant inv

I accept, I like to bid slams.

Yes we may be off 2 aces or AK.

[johnu]

mike777, on 2014-September-17, 18:29, said:

4nt=quant inv

I accept, I like to bid slams.

Yes we may be off 2 aces or AK.

If only there was a convention where you could show the number of aces you have.

[helene_t]

jillybean, on 2014-September-17, 14:26, said:

Another twist and something you may want to discuss with partner is openers response other than 6N.
Some play opener accepts with a cue or response as if 4NT was ace asking.

I think the most common responses are natural. Responder presumably hasn't got a fourcard major (unless maybe 4333) so we could easily belong in a minor suit slam.

[the_clown]

I would pass although its close. Partner is probably balanced without 4M and we dont have any fit or source of tricks. It will often not be enough to make 6N on pure power.

[jogs]

the_clown, on 2014-September-19, 01:59, said:

I would pass although its close. Partner is probably balanced without 4M and we dont have any fit or source of tricks. It will often not be enough to make 6N on pure power.

I don't think it is close. With a combined 33 HCP we rate to be less than 50/50 for making 12 tricks. And with this hand we rate to have a combined 32 HCP or less.

[mgoetze]

Trick13, on 2014-September-17, 05:54, said:

How do you play 4NT?

In my system, 4NT means "partner, I forgot that I have 2♠ available as a range ask."

I also play 1NT-2♠; 3♣-4NT as Baron.

[yunling]

I'll pass without doubt, this is a dead minimum.

[mycroft]

Heh. I play 4NT as "since 2♠ is a range ask, and I have KC in any suit after that, and I play SA Texas; how many Aces do you have, pard?"

[Vampyr]

johnu, on 2014-September-17, 19:10, said:

If only there was a convention where you could show the number of aces you have.

It is very playable, if you would accept but are worried about aces, to respond as if 4NT was ace-asking, allowing a stop in 5NT if two are missing. On the other hand, they haven't cashed them both yet...

Another popular method is to use suit bids as acceptances showing another possible strain.