[bdegrande]

Playing negative free bids, strong hands without a fit would start with a double. I personally don't like fit showing jumps, but given those agreements, double is the normal bid, the other options would be 2♥ (if that doesn't promise a fit) or 3NT. Given the placement of the heart honors, I think I would bid 3NT.

[SixOfWands]

I'm voting for 3NT.

You have the values, you have a double stop in hearts.
Factors in favor of bidding 3NT include:

Without any more bidding to direct them W may settle on a heart lead in which case you are likely to make 3NT.
If you don't bid 3NT your partner may bid it with A or K of spades. E may not lead his possibly poor heart suit and a spade lead could defeat the contract.
Partner could turn up with Jxx or 9xxx in spades meaning you have a stop in spades but will never find it if you start with a double.
With W on lead he could under lead AKxxx and you have a stop!
If you double, W may well bid spades and opener could end up in 3NT. When this happens E will probably lead a spade lead and you are likely to go down.
If your partner doesn't hold the A or K of spades you will not make 5C either losing two spades and the AH.

Seems quite clear on this line of thought....

[jogs]

Vampyr, on 2014-September-01, 17:08, said:

Is it common for NFBidders to define the double as GF?

Absolutely not.

1♦ - 1♠ - X

♠ xx ♥ Kxxx ♦ Kxx ♣ xxxx

I'm doubling and planning to pass any rebid.

The double followed by a rebid in a new suit promises an opening hand. Still with a misfit we may choose to pass under game.

[beowulf]

There's nothing inconsistent with NFBs and FSJs. I play them both. NFBs are good when you have a competitive hand with a decent suit. As noted elsewhere this hand simply doubles and awaits developments. The most likely game here is 3NT, although 6♣ is still possible. I doubt if they will be preempting in hearts but if they do we will be well placed to whack them.

There are times when negative free bids are not the perfect system for a hand, just as there are times when a forcing response is not best. Personally, I like to be able to compete more. Playing the hand when it's right is often worth about the same number of IMPs as a game bonus might be.

[jogs]

This is the negative freebid article by Karen Walker.
https://www.google.c...0karen%20walker
This is a discussion of negative freebids started by Ryan Wessels on Bridge Winners.
http://bridgewinners...ative-freebids/

There doesn't seem to be wide concensus on what range constitutes a negative freebid. Seems like any partnership playing the treatment must spend time discussing and agreeing on the details. Do not play negative freebids with a pickup partner. His view on the treatment may vastly differ from yours.
Here's my take. Even in contested auctions most partnerships still give finding a major suit game top priority. Negative freebids are better for finding the best strain. If you are willing to accept less precise game bidding for the higher frequency of being in the best strain, then give negative freebids a try.
First separate 5 card suits hands from 6 card suits. With a 5 card suit the range should be 6 to 11 HCP. At the bottom of the range(6-8) the suit must be at least KQxxx. With a 6 card suit or longer the range is lowered to 4-9 HCP. At the bottom of this range(4-6) the suit should be QJTxxx or better. Holding a singleton makes NFB more attractive.
Karen Walker focuses on the 1m-(1♠)-2♥ auction. 1m-(1♠)-X allows opponents to preempt your side with a 2♠ call. Now you must decide whether the hearts are worth introducing at the 3 level. NFB allows you to introduce the suit on the two level.
1♦-(2♣). There is a family of auctions where opponents overcall at the 2 level. On these auctions there is a very small chance of you ever holding a near opening hand. The NFB is more pragmatic. These NFB hands occur with much higher frequency.
In the Bridge Winners' discussion Kit Woolsey says he has found little value in playing 2 of a minor as NF. He only plays 2 of a major as nfb.
Fit jump shifts are compatible with NFB.
1♣-(1♦)
1♣-(1♥)
1♦-(1♥)
On these auctions one of a major is forcing. Two of a major can be fit jump. There are no NFB auctions from these starts.

Remember that non forcing doesn't mean shutout. Opener should usually raise with 4 card support.

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2014-August-31, 07:13, said:

For those of you who are going to tell me I shouldn't play so much system, thanks.

On the contrary, the problem in this situation is obviously that you don't play enough system.

I recall an interview with Eric Rodwell wherein he opined that NFBs are good over limited openings as in Precision, but not good over wide openings as in Standard American. Makes sense to me. But I take the opportunity to be able to bid them once in a while anyway by playing transfers in certain situations.

And really, doesn't it strike you as incredibly inefficient for both double and 1♠ to show spades here?

[jillybean]

Thanks for the replies. I'm coming back to this thread just now, very busy time with things other than bridge at the moment.

I've not really made any progress and need to find some time to sit down with my partner and go through these replies and work through our system.
I don't like to start with a double here because as others have noted, with a strong one suited hand the auction often gets ugly.


Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to
show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

[helene_t]

jillybean, on 2014-September-10, 14:50, said:

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to
show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

I think it's great that you play double this way when you play NFB. This means that strong hands with length in the other minor can double and then bid the suit: this will logically show a hand too strong for a NFB.

You do have another problem, though. If you first bid spades and then the other minor, how much strength are you showing, and which of the two suits is guaranteed to be a 5-card suit?

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2014-September-10, 14:50, said:

Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

Why not? Opener assumes the minimum hand at first, if responder bids again it turns out he had a GF instead.

[jillybean]

mgoetze, on 2014-September-10, 17:07, said:

Why not? Opener assumes the minimum hand at first, if responder bids again it turns out he had a GF instead.

Doesn't it get murky if opener has a good hand (18+) ?

[jillybean]

helene_t, on 2014-September-10, 15:04, said:

You do have another problem, though. If you first bid spades and then the other minor, how much strength are you showing, and which of the two suits is guaranteed to be a 5-card suit?

I think that would be the start of an xyz auction for us.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2014-September-10, 14:50, said:

Thanks for the replies. I'm coming back to this thread just now, very busy time with things other than bridge at the moment.

I've not really made any progress and need to find some time to sit down with my partner and go through these replies and work through our system.
I don't like to start with a double here because as others have noted, with a strong one suited hand the auction often gets ugly.


Michael; for us, double in this auction denies spades, 1♠ shows 4+ Which raises another question, if we are playing NFB we can't use double to
show a GF hand and to show a minimum response w/o 4 spades.

I play NFB and indeed there may be times where if you start with x with a gf hand the opp will preempt you.

As with all things there are negatives with playing a gadget.
I play NFB but understand there are negatives. Hopefully you will find these are rare/

Yes you start with a neg x with a gf hand and long suit. Yes if the opp keep bidding the auction will get ugly. fair point. I find it rare but a fair point against playing NFB

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2014-September-10, 17:47, said:

Doesn't it get murky if opener has a good hand (18+) ?

Only because of your kickback fascination, others would just bid 4NT as Blackwood and opener would understand.

[Zelandakh]

If I understand it your double effectively shows either a GF hand with clubs or a balanced hand without a stopper. Since many play their 1♠ response to show this I think you should be ok with double! The big hand is not really a problem - if you are forcing to game opposite what is potentially the weak hand type and Responder has a GF hand, they should know what to do!

But if you have worries about this then my suggestion is to talk with Ben (inquiry) about it. He has played transfers here (including 1♠ = clubs or bal without stop) for a long time and can assuredly fill you in on the potential pitfalls. Given that you have the weaker hands with clubs removed via the NFB as well as having an extra step you are better off on these auctions so what works for him should work well for you + a bit on top.

[jallerton]

The main downside of two-way calls comes in competition: if next hands raises the overcall, it's hard for Opener to cater for both the standard negative double and the strong hands with a long suit. This is why there's much more of a case for playing negative free bids in unbid majors than in unbid minors: after say 1♥-(2♦), if you have to double on an FG hand with 5 or 6 spades, it's not so bad as partner will expect you to hold 4 spades anyway; but if you double on an FG hand with 2 spades and 6 clubs as well, partner will not know whether he should be competing in spades or not.

[Zelandakh]

jallerton, on 2014-September-11, 16:15, said:

The main downside of two-way calls comes in competition: if next hands raises the overcall, it's hard for Opener to cater for both the standard negative double and the strong hands with a long suit.

But this is not a problem for JB's structure. You can see this similarly to Swedish Club only better - the double is effectively either balanced or GF with clubs. A weak balanced hand passes and a GF hand does something - easy. The only problem comes from stronger balanced hands without a stop but these would also be a potential issue without the NFBs.