[niveau99]

A Bergen hand
South Dealer
Hand 1
South North
♠ A106 ♠ KQ7654
♠ 9 ♥ AQ3
♦ AJ964 ♦ K2
♣ KQ2 ♣ 98

The biding goes:
South North


1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
4♥ (1) 4NT (2)
5♥ 6♠
Bergen’s comment:
North’s 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. So if South does not have a ♣ control either, he would sign off in 4♠.

Because South did not sign off, he has to have a control.

(1)The 4♥ bid shows first or second round control in hearts.

(2) North now bids 4NT to reach the lay down slam.

My hands
Hand 2
South North
♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654
♥ J10 ♥ AKQ
♦ AQ964 ♦ K2
♣ QJ2 ♣ 98

The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
4♠ P

My comment:
North’s 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. South does not have a ♣ control either so signs off in 4♠.
----------------------------------------
Hand 3
South North
♠ A1063 ♠ KQ7654
♥ 94 ♥ AK3
♦ AJ105 ♦ K2
♣ AK2 ♣ 98



The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
???
1.A bid of 4♠ by South would deny a ♣ control!
2. Compare hand 3 with hand 1
3. Any comment?
4. I have a solution, but I want to see yours first.

Tks

[Jinksy]

Quote

3. Any comment?

This seems to be the only legal hand?

If S can bid 4♥ as Last Train, that solves his problems. If not, he cues 5♣, probably showing both the AK, or maybe just confirming the ace, depending on style, but drawing attention the the H problem either way.

[PhantomSac]

4H shows a club control not necessarily a heart control ldo. Welcome to the 2000s.

[fromageGB]

Cue bids never cope with all hands without penalty (being lead-indicative or whatever). Certainly the north hand on the opener's bidding deserves a cue bid, and one option is to play that 3NT is a one-under denial cue bid showing slam interest without club control. After opener's 4♣ showing club control, you could ace ask.

3NT here is not a non-serious 3NT because opener has limited his hand with a passable 3♠ bid. In a different sequence where he had given spade support in an unlimited bidding sequence, 3NT would be non-serious, so now playing one-under cues, a first cue bid of 4♥ shows no club control.

Where the bidding has been limited, and you want to make an invitation to bid slam but do not want to unilaterally ace ask, the one-under method allows you the option of bidding 3NT to deny the club control, then over 4♣, which shows the control you are missing, you can bid 4♠. This cannot be a sign-off when partner has bid the missing control (you would have just bid 4♠ rather than 3NT) so it is a cooperative slam try, showing all controls but needing extras from partner. If he does not have them, he can pass.

Alternative methods also work on this hand. A simple denial cue bid method works (I think) in pretty well all cases. On this hand it goes 4♣ 4♥ (opener has the responder-denied clubs and the opener-bypassed diamonds but does not have hearts). However, this method does not have the cooperative slam try capability and perhaps gives opponents too many opportunities for lead-directing doubles.

Adopt the ambiguous 4♥ cue bid without a control at your peril.

[mike777]

Yes, much prefer 3nt rather than 4d. 3nt is slam going hand, often hoping pard can cue clubs but need not be 100%

[fromageGB]

PhantomSac, on 2014-September-06, 15:05, said:

4H shows a club control not necessarily a heart control ldo. Welcome to the 2000s.

ldo - means what? Not in the BBO abbreviations, and I don't think I have come across it.

[fromageGB]

mike777, on 2014-September-06, 15:25, said:

Yes, much prefer 3nt rather than 4d. 3nt is slam going hand, often hoping pard can cue clubs but need not be 100%

This version of 3NT is different, possibly a "serious 3NT"? It makes the bidding more complicated when the missing control in the bidder's hand is not clubs. Imagine it is a diamond control he is short of, and bids 3NT. He is stuck when opener with both minor controls bids 4♣. If he bids 4♥ to show that control, opener can see all controls but he is not the one who wants to ace ask, so perhaps he bids by giving his response to an assumed ace ask? Could this be then taken by responder as being a sort of exclusion ask?

When the bidder of 3NT is missing only the heart control and opener bids 4♦ what does he do?

Bidding a one-under-the-one-wanted cue bid is simple in comparison, as is a denial cue bid.

[PhantomSac]

fromageGB, on 2014-September-06, 15:39, said:

ldo - means what? Not in the BBO abbreviations, and I don't think I have come across it.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=ldo+acronym

[fromageGB]

Thanks. I have added www.internetslang.com to my bookmarks!

[niveau99]

niveau99, on 2014-September-06, 14:31, said:

A Bergen hand
South Dealer
Hand 1
South North
♠ A106 ♠ KQ7654
♠ 9 ♥ AQ3
♦ AJ964 ♦ K2
♣ KQ2 ♣ 98

The biding goes:
South North


1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
4♥ (1) 4NT (2)
5♥ 6♠
Bergen's comment:
North's 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. So if South does not have a ♣ control either, he would sign off in 4♠.

Because South did not sign off, he has to have a control.

(1)The 4♥ bid shows first or second round control in hearts.

(2) North now bids 4NT to reach the lay down slam.

My hands
Hand 2
South North
♠ AJ106 ♠ KQ7654
♥ J10 ♥ AKQ
♦ AQ964 ♦ K2
♣ QJ2 ♣ 98

The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
4♠ P

My comment:
North's 4♦ bid denies a ♣ control, the suit bypassed. South does not have a ♣ control either so signs off in 4♠.
----------------------------------------
Hand 3
South North
♠ A1063 ♠ KQ7654
♥ 94 ♥ AK3
♦ AJ105 ♦ K2
♣ AK2 ♣ 98



The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
???
1.A bid of 4♠ by South would deny a ♣ control!
2. Compare hand 3 with hand 1
3. Any comment?
4. I have a solution, but I want to see yours first.

Tks

[niveau99]

The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦

4♥ confirming the denied Club stopper but denying a Heart stopper.

I play Non-serious 3NT so the reason for the 4♦ bid by North.

I don't cuebid past game.

Tks for the replies

[damitall]

Why did the hand was not opened 1NT? Full balanced 16 HCP!

[damitall]

Why did the hand was not opened 1NT? Full balanced 16 HCP!

[damitall]

My partner opened 1NT .A 2 Club relay and opener 3D showing maximum hand with 4D and a major.3H relay 3S spades.4C asking doubleton 4H heart doubleton.4NT simple Blackwood 5club 3 Aces,5NT relay for club King,6D saying yes.7 Spades.All Pass.

[niveau99]

damitall, on 2014-September-07, 13:13, said:

My partner opened 1NT .A 2 Club relay and opener 3D showing maximum hand with 4D and a major.3H relay 3S spades.4C asking doubleton 4H heart doubleton.4NT simple Blackwood 5club 3 Aces,5NT relay for club King,6D saying yes.7 Spades.All Pass.

[niveau99]

Actually I made up that hand just to show that the bid of 4H is similar to the 4th suit, asking for H control, not showing a control, contrary to Marty Bergen's intention. You can just replace a small Diamond by the Queen.

[damitall]

It is my polite and humble suggestion that you play 3NT over 3S as slam aspiration,keeping all other bids except the 4S ,which is sign off,as natural bids.It makes the life much simpler for cue bidding.

[msjennifer]

I know the relays developed by Damitall,who does not play Stayman over 1NT.Even on 2NT openings she prefers to play Baron as then one does not miss a slam in a 44 minor suit fit.She also has laid down two prinipales 1) opener never makes a splinter bid and(2)opener bids the fourth suit to guarantee a control in that suit and not to deny it..

[msjennifer]

I know the relays developed by Damitall,who does not play Stayman over 1NT.Even on 2NT openings she prefers to play Baron as then one does not miss a slam in a 44 minor suit fit.She also has laid down two prinipales 1) opener never makes a splinter bid and(2)opener bids the fourth suit to guarantee a control in that suit and not to deny it..

[fromageGB]

niveau99, on 2014-September-07, 11:59, said:

The biding goes:
South North
1♦ 1♠
3♠ 4♦
4♥ confirming the denied Club stopper but denying a Heart stopper.

If 4♥ denies the heart control, what does opener do with a heart control?