[the hog]

All vul imps
(3H) X (P)

4568
Axx
Axx
Jxx

And you bid?

[luis]

Very nice problem,

Pass.

Can be very wrong but I take my chances, 4333 hands are horrible dummies for pd.

[the hog]

Hmm. Deep view!

[pbleighton]

Perhaps I'm feeling overly frisky today, but I'd bid 3NT.

Heart stopper, 9 hcp, and partner should have some cards for his double.

[lenze]

I agree with Luis! Pass is probably the action I would take at the table. If partner is real, 3 Hearts rates to go down 75-80% of the time (sometimes a lot). I would not expect to go plus by bidding more than 60-65% of the time. This would be a no brainer at MPs!

BTW: The information that this is IMPs is not enough. If this is a 7 board swiss team match against average opponents, I would be more inclined to bid. (Don't want to risk a large swing). If it is, however, a 26 board knockout match, I would be much more willing to defend.

[Rado]

Hi all,

It's pure LTT calculation. Let's assume partner has perfect 4144 shape with (14)15+ points.
Opps have 9 cards fit, we 8 cards fit and totla number of tricks is 17, plus 1 trick adjustment for 7 card He suit = 18 total tricks minus 1 trick for probable minor honours opps have in our Sp fit (or CL or DI when 41(53) shape) returning to 17 total tricks.
If we make 4Sp they are down 2 for 500
If we make 3SP only they are down 1 for 200,
If we are down at 3Sp they had 3He DBLD just made which is not so probable when holding 2 Aces against partner's 3 level take-out.
Also Partner may not have perfect shape with 2 cards in He (42(43), even 4252) where the expected plus from passing is bigger.
In my view both the percentage and practical bids are PASS,
Best regards, rado

[inquiry]

Rado's Law of Total Trick calculations are very reasonable and right on the mark. With most partners who double 3H's, you should pass and collect your plus. But there is one more calculation to consider before you pass. How aggressive a bidder is your partner when holding short hearts on an auction like this. If your partner is the type looking at a heart void and 10 or so points or heart singleton and 12 or so points will double regardless of vulnerabilty, you will want to reconsider your pass of the double.

I have one partner I wouldn't pass 3Sx with unless you held a gun to my head. They maybe making overtricks!!! So with a partner whos doubles, especially vul, are sound you will pass without a hestitation. With a bid-em up over eager partner you pass at your peril. And if y our over eager partner was actually dealt a good hand? Over your 3S, he will bid 4S on the grounds that you could have your "predicted" required 6 to 8 points...

Ben

[luis]

Ben Said:

Quote

I have one partner I wouldn't pass 3Sx with unless you held a gun to my head. They maybe making overtricks!!! So with a partner whos doubles, especially vul, are sound you will pass without a hestitation. With a bid-em up over eager partner you pass at your peril. And if y our over eager partner was actually dealt a good hand? Over your 3S, he will bid 4S on the grounds that you could have your "predicted" required 6 to 8 points...

West 3h
North Double
East pass
South 3s (alert!)
West What is that?
South Transfer
West Transferring what?
South The blame
.....

:-)))

[inquiry]

Lol... cute... but word to the wise...ignore your partners tendencies at your own risk.

If you partner will freely double 3H with...

KJTx
void
QJxxx
QTxx

or

KQxx
x
JTxx
Kxxx

You should re-evaluate a 3S contract versus a 3Hx one. First rule of bridge might should be know thy partner as you know thyself..... :-)

[the hog]

I must admit that I am slightly surprised at the number of passers here. 6S is cold.

Partner's hand was
AKQxx
x
Kx
AKxxx

My pd bid 4S over the X with the posted hand

4568
Axx
Axx
Jxx

This is a bid I do not like at all; there are no guarantees I have 4 decent S. I was wondering whether anyone apart from Peter contemplated 3NT.
Incidentally it is hard not to stay out of 7 after a 4S bid. How would you continue?

[mishovnbg]

I will not dbl with nice 2 suits and never with void. Over preempts i play 4CL/4DI as 2 suiter and in example i will bid 4CL. With 2A and 4 fit my p probably will bid 4HE as invit for slam and after 4NT RKCB we will play 6SP ( for 7 i must bid 5CL as new ask for Q/dubleton CL, but p can understand it as try of better slam )
Misho

[the hog]

So Misho, what do you bid over 3H with
Kx
xx
Kx
AKJxxxx

You cannot bid a natural 3C as this is a 2 suiter in your system

[Rado]

Quote

So Misho, what do you bid over 3H with
Kx
xx
Kx
AKJxxxx

You cannot bid a natural 3C as this is a 2 suiter in your system

Hi all,

of course Misho cannot bid 3Cl over 3He since not allowed by the rules:-)))))))))

In practice lack of natural 4m overcall is not so dangerous as it seems. If we insist to have 4m natural then all monster 2 suiters will fly away in some theoretical actions. For example next time P will DBL opps 3He opening with:
AKQJx
x
x
AKQxxx

and we have to invent bidding sequences to find the grand.

If 4m is 2 suiter then with minor one suiter we must take a little lie: 5m, 3NT, DBL or pass

Best regards, Rado

[the hog]

yeah yeah meant 4C!! lol
Anyway not so re monster 2 suiters if you play 4NT as a 2 suited takeout as we do; (and not necessarily the minors of cousrse).

Over weak 2 4C is leaping michaels of course.

[luis]

I said it was risky to pass the double but I still think it is the right action.
Maybe the black two suiter should bid 4h instead of double to be more descriptive.
I think 4h is surely s+m in this context since you can bid 4NT with both minors.

[dan.gerstman]

take out doubles are for takeout: 3s

[pbleighton]

I suggested 3NT because of the heart stopper, the bad spade suit, and the shape. I was also making an assumption that partner would have more than a dead minimum opener to double in this situation.

What were others assuming about partner's strength?

[luis]

Quote

I suggested 3NT because of the heart stopper, the bad spade suit, and the shape. I was also making an assumption that partner would have more than a dead minimum opener to double in this situation.
What were others assuming about partner's strength?

You can't assume much because the preempt makes things difficult, pd has just a few "normal" bids for a zillion bridge hands.
pass, 3nt, double, 3s, 4c, 4d, 4h, 4s, 4n, 5c, 5d, 5h. In about ten bids you have millions and millions of hands so it's evident that one particular bid applies to many different situations. In average most people decided to take his chances and pass the double.

[inquiry]

Possible bids with the north hand in the balance seat....

3S 4C 4H 4S 4N

Double with the hand in question is clearly wrong. First, partner my leap to 5Diamonds (shudder). Second, partner may apply the law and pass.

3S is even worse than dbl. You are simply too strong to bid tame 3S. And a leap to 4S is fairly unilateral with a second five card suit and soooo much extra values.

Misho's plays a balancing 4C's on this auction sort of as a non-leaping michaels. An interesting treatment, but like the idea that 4 Clubs shows a club-spade two suit on the simple grounds that in balancing position, sometimes you have clubs and will not want them to play 3-Hearts.

So that leaves, only two choices for me....

4H's -
4NT -

Ok, I agree that 4NT shows "any" monster two suiter. But, and this is important, your partner will be bidding a 3 card club suit before a five card diamond or five card spade suit, in an effort to find a fit. So at matchpoints, 4NT is simply forbidden on this hand. Who wants to play in clubs with a potential 5-5 spade fit? At imps, it is not all that bad to make 5C when you could make 5S (or 6 of each).

So 4NT has two problems... the moster two suiter as good as it is, isn't quite monster enough. It would help if it had good intermediates in clubs (say T9 instead of xx). And you may well stick the contract in the wrong denomination.

But Luis got it right with his suggested 4H bid. 4H's is just about right. It places emphasis where it should be... on the potential to play in spades, but allows uncertainty. You are either monster one suiter (way too good for immediate 4S or 5C for instance) or have a major/minor two suiter. It shows a terrific hand with game forcing values, and it is most likely to get a cooperative bid out of partner when one is to obtained.

On the actual hand South, with two aces, four card spade support and a potentially useful Club JACK, is not going too go quietly over 4H's. How he will continue will depend upon partnership understanding, but no way will he bid a tame 4S's. I like the following responding scheme based upon paradox bidding concepts where 5C/6C shows no tolerance for spades, asking partner to pick a minor... freeing up 5D, 5H, and 5S to separate various slam try hands.

(2H)-4H-(P)-?


4S = I had to bid something-i may be bidding on S-Hx or S-xxx
5S = Natural invite, bad spades, but with heart control
4N = I don't like spades, got hearts why u not dbl?
5C = Pass/correct to 5D.. short S, no heart stack
5D = Spade fit, good S's, no heart control (see 5C)
5H = heart control, strong spade fit
6C = minor suit pass/correct slam.

So on this hand the bidding would have been....

(2H)-4H-(P)-5S
6S -All Pass

If Responder helps you out if he doubles 4H's. Principle of Fast Arrival applies. RDBL shows a heart control, 4S shows the same hand as without double. Immediate bids over the dbl are weaker and delayed bids are stronger.

[luis]

So Ben we agree again :-) That's good.
I like your responses to 4h and I agree that 5s would have been the best bid.
I think that over 5s we should use 5NT as ace-asking. I've played this treatment when they compete to the 5 level and we don't know if we can play 7 or not. Too bad we can't find the cQ or can we?

Luis