[biggerclub]

OK. Here is what I think the 1D opening structure should look like in Canape 1C system. A 1D opening promises 3+ Ds, denies any 4 card MAJ, may be either a mini-NT (rarely) if VUL or, more commonly, an intermediate (13-15) NT if NV. Otherwise it is a D one-suiter or a C/D two suiter.

Opener quickly describes her hand after (1MAJ response by Responder) with her second bid -- rebidding 1NT shows a balanced hand too strong or, more rarely, too weak for the 1N opener (10-12 NV, 1st or 2nd seat 13-15 all others), rebidding Ds shows 5+ Ds and usually 6+, rebidding Cs shows a minors two suiter, a raise shows three to an honor with responder plus a singleton or void somewhere. Simple rebids are min for range, jump rebids are max for range. Opener is absolutely limited to 10-15 and for all practical purposes most opening hands will have at least 11HCP.

Responder does not bother to show a crappy 4 card MAJ or strain to keep the bidding open with bad hands generally. 8+HCP is the typical bottom of R's range but a few lead directers with as little as 6HCP may be in the mix.

Inverted minors, non-forcing 2c over 1d and variable JS (weak NV, strong VUL). We also use criss-cross principles -- jumps in Cs show good D support and stronger hands.

Rather than splinters, we use the double jump as immediate exclusion KCBW/1430. A few other esoteric slam tools fill out the higher levels of R's bids.

Let me know what you think. [FYI the outline is coded for ease O1 is opener's first bid; R1 responder's first bid; O2 is opener's second bid, etc. I finally gave up on the color coding -- too much for one night] Are we going to miss too many 5-3 MAJ fits when R is weak, O has no honor with her support? Is it too much memory work (bear in mind the the 1D opening is always the most complicated part of any forcing C system), etc.?

Quote

O1. 1D = 10-15 3+ diamonds, no 4 card major, Ds almost always equal or longer than Cs
R1. Responder generally passes with <8 HCP
R1. Exceptions:
Can bid 1M with 6+ HCP, 4+ Cards in MAJ AND lead directing value
Can jumpshift NV with weak 2-ish type hand that usually won’t make game
Can jump raise in diamonds with 5+ diamonds and 6-9HCP
R1. 1MAJ = 4+ cards in MAJ, 6+ HCP, lead directing value or any 8+ HCP, 5+ length
O2. 1S (Min Hand very str S)/1NT/2D = min (10-bad 12 HCP; NT is 13-15 if NV 1st or 2nd seat)
R2. 2C = NMF (or 4SF) with typical structure; at least INV values
O3. Opener shows any 3 card support for MAJ
R3. Responder promises another bid up to 2N or 3D
O3. Opener rebids 2N or 2D with 10-11 HCP (2x discouraging)
O3. Other rebids show at least 1 honor there, good 11 to 12 HCP
R2. 2D/2MAJ/2NT = sign off, attempt to improve contract
R2. 2S after 1H (R1) = Responder reverse (Good 13 HCP +) 1 round force
O3. 2N/3D =discouraging (10-bad 11 HCP; or 13-bad 14 HCP if strong earlier)
R2. 3C/2D = NM or 4th Suit game force, unspecified shape
O3. Cue bid high cards, not shape, stumbling to NT
R2. 3D/3MAJ rebid = invitational strongly suggesting play in this suit
O3. Accept with 12 + HCP or 14+ if stronger NT range early
O3. PASS with 10 HCP or 13 if stronger NT range early
O3. Guess with 11 HCP or 14 if stronger NT range early
R2. 3 other MAJ = Game Force 5/5 or better in MAJ, 6H/5S if reverse
O2. 2 of MAJ= min, strong 3card support in MAJ, some singleton
R2. New suit = help suit game try
O3. Any bid other than 3MAJ accepts and shows honor
R2. 3 of MAJ general game try
O3. Bidding on accepts and shows honor
R2. 2NT = forcing and probing for best denomination
O3. Bid length: 3C = 4+ Cs, 3D = usually 6+ Ds, 3MAJ = KJT or better in MAJ
R2. 3C = artificial game force
O3. Bid high cards/Stumbling toward NT
O2. 2N = 14-15 HCP balanced hand, at least honor single in Responder’s suit.
O2. 3C = minor suit distributional freak with equal or longer diamonds, 5-5+
R2. Suits forcing to at least 3N
R2. 3N = to play
O2. 3D = 14-15 HCP, 6+ diamonds
R2. 3MAJ = sign-off
R2. Anything else accepts and shows high card(s)
O2. 3H/1S or 2S/1H = splinter, max, very good support
R2. 3N = suggest to play
R2. Any suit = cue bid
O2. Double Raise = max, strong 3 card support, some singleton
R2. 3N = suggest to play
R2. Any suit = cue bid
R1. 1NT = 8-11- HCP, balanced or weak hand with 5+ Cs
O2. PASS = <14 HCP, balanced
O2. 2C = <14 HCP minor 2 suiter, at least 5-4 in minors with longer diamonds
R2. Responder generally passes or corrects.
R2. Any other bid is honor showing, stumbling to NT or slam interest
O2. 2D = <14 HCP 6+ diamonds, retreat from NT
R2. Responder generally passes.
O2. 2H/2S = 14-15 HCP, concentration of values in suit bid
R2. Responder places contract
O3. Opener must respect Responder’s decision
O2. 2N = Invitational to game, scattered values or running diamonds
R2. Responder places contract
O2. 3C= >13 HCP 2 suiter, at least 5-5 in minors with equal or longer diamonds
R2. Responder, if MIN, passes or corrects.
R2. Any other bid is honor showing, stumbling to NT or slam interest
O2. 3D = >13 HCP, 6+ diamonds
R2. Responder generally passes
R2. Any other bid is honor showing, stumbling to NT or slam interest
R2. 3NT is to play, showing fitting D honor and two more tricks
O2. 3N = 7 running diamond tricks + an outside card (A or K)
R2. Responder passes or (rarely) bids 4D (if very weak and afraid)
R1. 2C or 2D = 10/11- + HCP 5 card suit
O2. Except for 2 below, auction forced to 2N
O2. 2D after 2C = 6+ diamonds, minimum, don’t like clubs
R2. Responder gives up with a minimum misfit
O2. 2H or 2S = concentration of values any strength
R2. 2N or 3 of either min = INV only
R2. Any other bid on R’s 2nd round =GF, stumbling to NT
R1. 2MAJ NV = weak jump shift with 6+ length and lead directing value
O2. Opener usually PASS
O2. Do not RESCUE even with 7 Ds. NDNT (no double, no trouble)
O2. 3 MAJ = INV (Upgrade honors in MAJ and Ds, only count As in others)
O2. 4 MAJ = To make or, over interference, possible SAC
R1. 2MAJ VUL=Game Force with 6+ length and slam interest
O2. Rebid 2NT with minimum and no fit
R2. Responders 3D on second bid is game forcing and fitting
O3. Stumbling to NT
R2. Other bids are still game forcing and show shape
O3. Stumbling to NT
O2. Rebid 3D with maximum and no fit (not fitting a 6 card MAJ = 5+ diamonds)
R2. Generally, stumbling to NT
R2. Responder is Captain and must drive to proper level and strain
R2. Situation is strongly suggesting forced to game even if 5D is that game
R1. 2NT = 12-13 HCP may have 1 or more 4 card MAJ
O2. 3D is an attempt to sign-off
R2. Any bid by R is a game force attempt to elicit more information.
O2. PASS is another great sign off call
O2. Any other accepts and stumbles to NT
R1. 3C = long diamonds and slam interest
O2. Cue bid Aces
R1. 3D = long diamonds and preemptive
O2. Cannot imagine anything that would not pass this one
R1. 3MAJ – 4CLUBS = Exclusion Ace Asking (Responder may have self-sufficient suit)
O2. Ds Trump, answer 1430
[color="#FF0000"] R1. 3NT = 14-16, to play
[color="#0000FF"]O2. Might try for slam with AQx, xx, AKQxxxx, x or something similar
[color="#FF0000"]R1. 4D = Ace Asking (minorwood 1430)
R1. 4MAJ = to play
R1. 4NT = balanced 17-18HCP; General Slam Try, not Ace asking
[color="#0000FF"]O2. PASS with 11-12 HCP; except accept with A,A,A
O2. Bid A, up the line, with 13 HCP
O2. Can bid 5NT with 2+ Aces and 15 HCP
[color="#FF0000"] R1. 5C = long diamonds and strong slam try
[color="#0000FF"]O2. Try to cooperate, but can sign off with a really bad hand
[color="#FF0000"] R1. 5D = to make if opener is min and for slam otherwise
R1. 5H/5S/6C = bid 7 if you have this Ace
R1. 5N = bid 7D if you have 2 D honors (A,K,Q)

[straube]

Hi and nice to have you posting here.

I think your 1D is underloaded (contains too few hand patterns) and your 1M is overloaded.

Here's an example of what I mean.

1D-1H, 1S is presumably balanced? Else we open 1S or something else? So 4234, 4243, 4342, 4333, 4252 probably. 5 hand patterns then.

But the opening 1S bid has how many patterns? I don't know but I'm guessing on the order of 100 or so.

However both sequences have the exact same room to sort out hand patterns.

In a contested auction your opening bid arrangement could turn out to be a good idea. It might be more preemptive to the opponents than ourselves, but you'd want evidence for that.

Meanwhile, in an uncontested auction, I think you're going to have much too easy an auction after 1D-1H, 1S and a much more difficult auction after opening 1S.

[kenrexford]

Hard to judge this out of the context of the rest of the system, but it seems completely insane. Any canapé system that has 1D under loaded is incomprehensible. I suppose you're using tendency canapé, but even then the idea seems off base.

[biggerclub]

straube, on 2014-July-07, 23:52, said:

Hi and nice to have you posting here.

I think your 1D is underloaded (contains too few hand patterns) and your 1M is overloaded.

Here's an example of what I mean.

1D-1H, 1S is presumably balanced? Else we open 1S or something else? So 4234, 4243, 4342, 4333, 4252 probably. 5 hand patterns then.

But the opening 1S bid has how many patterns? I don't know but I'm guessing on the order of 100 or so.

However both sequences have the exact same room to sort out hand patterns.

In a contested auction your opening bid arrangement could turn out to be a good idea. It might be more preemptive to the opponents than ourselves, but you'd want evidence for that.

Meanwhile, in an uncontested auction, I think you're going to have much too easy an auction after 1D-1H, 1S and a much more difficult auction after opening 1S.

1D denies a 4 card major and failure to raise Hs strongly suggests no shortness (although with something like KJT, xxx, AQxxxx,x I might temporize with a 1S call and wait to hear more from P). 1S shows KJT or better in S and no other more appealing call.

Generally I prefer . . . in order . . . raising to 2H with Qxx or better support and a singleton somewhere, rebidding 1S as discussed above, rebidding 2 diamonds with 6 or more (and min), rebidding 1 nt with an over, or more rarely under, strength NT shape, raising Hs with any KQx or better, bidding Cs with 4+ Cs . . . I think that about covers all the cases that would open 1D in the system.

Hands with a 4card MAJ open the MAJ, not 1D/1N/2C. Even more overloading the MAJ suit opening.

I ran a sim and here's what I found from approx 100 hands screened to 11-15HCP: 19 1D openers (4 of which were NT shape but under or over strength, 11 5card diamond suits, 4 6+card diamond suits), 30 1H openers (14 balanced 4 card suits, 4 canape 4 card suits, 4 5 card suits and 8 6+ card suits), 28 1S openers (including 1 where with AKQx in S and xxxx in H, I elected to open 1S)(8 balanced 4 card suits, 6 canape 4 card suits, 10 5 card suits, and 3 6+ card suits -- there were also 2 hands with 5Ss and 6Hs in my sample), 9 1NT openers (4 completely balanced, 3 with a 5 card minor), 9 2C openers (2 with 5 card suits and 7 with 6+ card suits), 1 2H opener (showing specifically 5+ Hs and 4+ Cs -- in this case specifically 5-4), no 2S openers and 1 hand that had NT shape 11 HCP but I elected to pass as we were VUL. Perhaps there is no need to reserve the 2MAJ opening for the 5-4 shape given the rarity and especially since GCC prohibits it showing bid MAJ + undisclosed MIN (2MAJ showing 2 known suits allowed -- assuming 1 known plus 1 unknown NOT allowed by inference).

And this comports with my memory -- that we were bidding 1H about 1.5x as often as 1D (and 1S another 1.5x as often).

I think that the "No 4-card MAJ" is a very helpful bit of information for competitive auctions. I think we may lose a little not being able to distinguish between specifically 4 and 5 cards in the opened MAJ when the auction gets competitive -- but it doesn't seem like much. While 1H or 1S covers a lot of ground, it also chews up a lot of space -- especially when regularly opening 10HCP hands.

I would like to see how it does 15 years later (since the last time I played it seriously).

[Kungsgeten]

I thought it was quite cumbersome to read your system notes. I would suggest ordering the responses as a tree, like this:

1D---
1M = 4+ suit 6+ hcp lead directing / 8+ hcp with 5+ suit
...1S = Natural
...1N = Balanced
...2C = Both minors
...2D = 6+ suit
...2M = 3+ support

Aside from that I can not see why your diamond opening would not work. It has a lot less information than a regular strong club nebulous diamond and even less information than a Standard American 1D.

My main concern is your 1M opening bids. I have played four card majors (in a non-canapé context, where 1M is either 5+ or a 4 card suit if 12--14 balanced) a lot, since it is the standard system in Sweden. I have also played Moscito style openings where 1D and 1H are transfers to the majors, which may be canapé (like yours) but can not be balanced unless holding a 5 card major. I also have some experience with Magic Diamond's 1M openings, which is like Moscito but not transfers. I think your 1M opening may be playable, but I would recommend to remove the 4432 hands from them. I thought that even Moscito's 1M openings were a bit hard to untangle in competition, but there the openings showed a 5+ suit about 2/3 of the time. Yours will have a 4 card suit more often.

Do you plan to always support the major with 3 card support (as is common in Moscito)? Prepare to play many Moysian fits. In Swedish standard we open 1S with 4333 or 4S, 4D and 32 in the other suits. 1S is often a 5+ suit, but a pretty common auction is still 1S--1NT (non-forcing), where you hope opener will be able to take another call. In your system the 1S opening could be any 4432 not holding 4 hearts, and I guess also 4-1-4-4. You could use transfer responses to 1M, as Magic Diamond and later Moscito versions, but then you give up playing 1NT (which will probably be a big loss since your 1M often is balanced).

If I were to play strong club with canapé, I think I would use something like this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+ suit, may have longer major, may not have longer clubs. Unbalanced.
1M = 4 card suit with longer side suit or 6+ suit. Unbalanced. 1H may also be 4-4-1-4 if you do not want to treat this as balanced.
1NT = 12--15, includes any 5332.
2C = 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4 diamonds. Unbalanced, no major.
2D = Mini multi
2M = 5+ suit and 4+ clubs. Opening strength.

I think it would be possible to include some NT-range in the 1D opening too, if you want two NT ranges (or simply play 1C as Swedish/Polish). Perhaps you could also use include 5332 into 1M, I think Ken's MICS system does this.

Over the above 1D opening, the following would be possible:

1D---
1M = 4+ suit
...Other major = 5+ suit
...1NT = 3 card support
...2C = Natural, 4+ suit and 5+ diamonds, or 4441 with singleton in responder's major.
...2D = 6+ suit
...2M = 4+ support (usually 5+ support)
1NT = Transfer to clubs
2C = Diamond raise, weak or GF
2D = INV diamond raise

[biggerclub]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-July-09, 01:45, said:

I thought it was quite cumbersome to read your system notes. I would suggest ordering the responses as a tree, like this:

1D---
1M = 4+ suit 6+ hcp lead directing / 8+ hcp with 5+ suit
...1S = Natural
...1N = Balanced
...2C = Both minors
...2D = 6+ suit
...2M = 3+ support

Aside from that I can not see why your diamond opening would not work. It has a lot less information than a regular strong club nebulous diamond and even less information than a Standard American 1D.

My main concern is your 1M opening bids. I have played four card majors (in a non-canapé context, where 1M is either 5+ or a 4 card suit if 12--14 balanced) a lot, since it is the standard system in Sweden. I have also played Moscito style openings where 1D and 1H are transfers to the majors, which may be canapé (like yours) but can not be balanced unless holding a 5 card major. I also have some experience with Magic Diamond's 1M openings, which is like Moscito but not transfers. I think your 1M opening may be playable, but I would recommend to remove the 4432 hands from them. I thought that even Moscito's 1M openings were a bit hard to untangle in competition, but there the openings showed a 5+ suit about 2/3 of the time. Yours will have a 4 card suit more often.

Do you plan to always support the major with 3 card support (as is common in Moscito)? Prepare to play many Moysian fits. In Swedish standard we open 1S with 4333 or 4S, 4D and 32 in the other suits. 1S is often a 5+ suit, but a pretty common auction is still 1S--1NT (non-forcing), where you hope opener will be able to take another call. In your system the 1S opening could be any 4432 not holding 4 hearts, and I guess also 4-1-4-4. You could use transfer responses to 1M, as Magic Diamond and later Moscito versions, but then you give up playing 1NT (which will probably be a big loss since your 1M often is balanced).

If I were to play strong club with canapé, I think I would use something like this:

1C = 16+
1D = 4+ suit, may have longer major, may not have longer clubs. Unbalanced.
1M = 4 card suit with longer side suit or 6+ suit. Unbalanced. 1H may also be 4-4-1-4 if you do not want to treat this as balanced.
1NT = 12--15, includes any 5332.
2C = 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and 4 diamonds. Unbalanced, no major.
2D = Mini multi
2M = 5+ suit and 4+ clubs. Opening strength.

I think it would be possible to include some NT-range in the 1D opening too, if you want two NT ranges (or simply play 1C as Swedish/Polish). Perhaps you could also use include 5332 into 1M, I think Ken's MICS system does this.

Over the above 1D opening, the following would be possible:

1D---
1M = 4+ suit
...Other major = 5+ suit
...1NT = 3 card support
...2C = Natural, 4+ suit and 5+ diamonds, or 4441 with singleton in responder's major.
...2D = 6+ suit
...2M = 4+ support (usually 5+ support)
1NT = Transfer to clubs
2C = Diamond raise, weak or GF
2D = INV diamond raise

I tried to do this (with spaces not periods) and html stripped out the spaces. Annoyingly.

[gwnn]

You can put in spaces with the [ code ] environment or by putting in [ space ].

[PrecisionL]

If 1♦ denies a 4-card major, then make 1♥/1♠ responses as showing 5-cards. I have played this way for years.

However the weak NT (11-14) eliminates the 3-cd ♦ opening unless 15-16 hcp.

[benlessard]

I have a friend who play

I agree 100% with Straube comments.

1NT weak and no majors. But could be 15-17 no M if you want.
1D = 5clubs or 4C+5D
1C = forcing, bal with 4M or D+M hands or strong hand.

there is 2 interesting ideas here.

Since you play transfers after 1C

1C-1D(showing H) & 1C-1H(showing S) the extras space that you got help is used to differentiate the 12-14 or 15-17 with support rather than 3 or 4 card support.


after 1C-??-2C can be artificial since you cannot have 6C.The idea is that its more important to have the extra 2C artificial after 1C-??-2C than after 1D-??-2C

The major drawback is when responder is weak and got no clubs you will play 1D instead of 1C however possibly in 2-1 fit.