[straube]

Where 1M-2N is LR+ usually 4+ trump and condensing heavily from IMPrecision and a local structure...

3C-7 loser or worse hand, may plan to GF
.....3D-GF usually bal
.....3M-LR
.....3OM-unspecified void
..........relay for high, mid, low
.....3N-high stiff
.....4C-mid stiff
.....4D-low stiff
3D-6 loser hand
.....3H-unspecified void
.....3S-bal or wants cue bid auction
.....3N-high stiff
.....4C-mid stiff
.....4D-low stiff
3H-unspecified void, 6 or fewer losers
.....relay for void
3S-5 losers or better, bal
3N-5 losers or better, high stiff
4C-5 losers or better, mid stiff
4D-5 losers or better, low stiff

After a 3S bid showing a balanced hand or hand that wants to cue bid

3N-by opener promises 2 of 3 top trump honors but by responder shows 1 of top 3 honors? Or how does the trump cue work exactly? Maybe it denies good trump.

[foobar]

straube, on 2014-June-20, 08:10, said:

Where 1M-2N is LR+ usually 4+ trump and condensing heavily from IMPrecision and a local structure...

3C-7 loser or worse hand, may plan to GF
.....3D-GF usually bal
.....3M-LR
.....3OM-unspecified void
..........relay for high, mid, low
.....3N-high stiff
.....4C-mid stiff
.....4D-low stiff
3D-6 loser hand
.....3H-unspecified void
.....3S-bal or wants cue bid auction
.....3N-high stiff
.....4C-mid stiff
.....4D-low stiff
3H-unspecified void, 6 or fewer losers
.....relay for void
3S-5 losers or better, bal
3N-5 losers or better, high stiff
4C-5 losers or better, mid stiff
4D-5 losers or better, low stiff

After a 3S bid showing a balanced hand or hand that wants to cue bid

3N-by opener promises 2 of 3 top trump honors but by responder shows 1 of top 3 honors? Or how does the trump cue work exactly? Maybe it denies good trump.

3♥ as catering to the improbable void seems misplaced. Perhaps a better choice for 3♥ to show slam interest (likely implying a singleton given the 10-15 opening range).

Also, given the (10)11-13 range for 1M, is it really possible to construct a 5-loser balanced hand?

[ArtK78]

foobar, on 2014-June-20, 10:08, said:

3♥ as catering to the improbable void seems misplaced. Perhaps a better choice for 3♥ to show slam interest (likely implying a singleton given the 10-15 opening range).

Also, given the (10)11-13 range for 1M, is it really possible to construct a 5-loser balanced hand?

Where did you get the idea that opener's hand was limited to 10-15? Just because the structure was derived partly from IMPrecision doesn't mean that it is the system in use.

[straube]

I should have specified, yes, 10-15

[straube]

foobar, on 2014-June-20, 10:08, said:

3♥ as catering to the improbable void seems misplaced. Perhaps a better choice for 3♥ to show slam interest (likely implying a singleton given the 10-15 opening range).

Also, given the (10)11-13 range for 1M, is it really possible to construct a 5-loser balanced hand?

I was thinking of 5422s for 5-loser balanced hands. Something improbable such as AJTxx AKQx xx xx (I think I'd just open 1C with AKQxx AQxx xx xx).

The real reason behind leaving a bid for the 5-loser balanced hand is just because I'd like to improve the symmetry. I actually reduced the void-showing bid from 3 strengths to 2 in order to facilitate this.
For the most part, singletons (by either hand) are shown at 3N, 4C, and 4D and voids (by either hand) are shown at 3N, 4C, 4D. The one exception is 1H-2N, 3C-3D, 3S-3N, 4C/4D/4H.

[steve2005]

As your playing 2N as a limit (+) raise shouldn't there be some attempt to see if your hands fit for game, rather than just 1M-2N-3♣-3M and then going to game if your a max?

over 1♥-2N you have 3♣/3♦/3♥. 3♣ could be min with a shortage, min with no shortage or GF hand and 3♦3♥ could be min with a shortage. so you can relay over 3♣


over 1♠ you could have 3♣/3♦/3♥ similar meanings and have 3♠ as a distributional GF

[foobar]

Assuming that 1♥ - 2♠ isn't available for the raise, I would go with a simple adaptation of the IMP scheme. This isn't optimal over a 1♠ opening, but the mnemonic advantage is that it's identical over the 1♥/1♠ openings. 3♠ is always RKC, 3N - 4D by opener always shows some sort of shortness and it's the same for responder as well (except with slightly different semantics in one case).

1M - 2N:

3♣: Sub-par opening
.....3♦: Counter try
.....3♥: Direct sign off over 1♥, indirect sign off over 1♠
.....3♠: RKC
.....3N - 4D: Cues with slam interest

3♦: GF, but not interested in slam vs. LR
.....3♥: No shortness, opener responds with 3♠= no shortness, else 3N-4D=High to low shortness
.....3♠: RKC
.....3N - 4D: High to low shortness
.....4M: Sign off

3♥: Strong slam interest
.....3♠: No shortness, opener responds with 3N-4D=High to low shortness
.....3N - 4D: High to low shortness
.....4M: Sign off (probably minimum 3-card LR)
.....4M+1: RKC

3♠: RKC

3N - 4♦: High - low voids with slam interest

[awm]

It may be worth deciding what other raises you have available. The IMPrecision version often conceals a splinter because we don't play splinter raises (1♠-4♥ is to play; otherwise we play mostly fit double jumps). If you do play splinter raises in some form, it becomes much less important for responder to be able to show shortness (except maybe in the case of the limit raise opposite a very interested partner).

In general I don't think a generic counter-try opposite a four-card limit raise is a very useful call. The limit raise is pretty limited anyway. You can get some benefit from more specific tries (basically we have mini-splinters, effectively), or from distinguishing responder's trump length if a three-card limit raise is possible (we have this situation also in some sequences).

The "five loser balanced hand" is probably 6322 or 5422. In fact it might be useful in general to be able to specifically show the extra trump (which is powerful in some auctions).

Having a way to bid keycard an still play 4M is interesting, but we have not found this to be a really useful method especially when opener is doing the asking. Usually the hands where slam opposite a limit raise is a possibility (but we didn't open strong club) are really shapely and while there are constructions like AQxxxx x KQJxx x, you will usually survive that hand by cuebidding and it's more common to be missing a side suit card (or have a void) where direct RKC won't do you much good.

[straube]

awm, on 2014-June-20, 18:31, said:

It may be worth deciding what other raises you have available. The IMPrecision version often conceals a splinter because we don't play splinter raises (1♠-4♥ is to play; otherwise we play mostly fit double jumps). If you do play splinter raises in some form, it becomes much less important for responder to be able to show shortness (except maybe in the case of the limit raise opposite a very interested partner).

In general I don't think a generic counter-try opposite a four-card limit raise is a very useful call. The limit raise is pretty limited anyway. You can get some benefit from more specific tries (basically we have mini-splinters, effectively), or from distinguishing responder's trump length if a three-card limit raise is possible (we have this situation also in some sequences).

The "five loser balanced hand" is probably 6322 or 5422. In fact it might be useful in general to be able to specifically show the extra trump (which is powerful in some auctions).

Having a way to bid keycard an still play 4M is interesting, but we have not found this to be a really useful method especially when opener is doing the asking. Usually the hands where slam opposite a limit raise is a possibility (but we didn't open strong club) are really shapely and while there are constructions like AQxxxx x KQJxx x, you will usually survive that hand by cuebidding and it's more common to be missing a side suit card (or have a void) where direct RKC won't do you much good.

We basically have 2N and 3N, 4C, and 4D available for raises. So far our 3N, 4C, and 4D are fit showing bids same as yours and I rather like the idea of preparing for a contested auction.

I also agree that having a counter-game try opposite a limit raise is not particularly useful...and we haven't the space to really make specific and useful counter tries anyway. Our limit raise can be 3 trump, but this is actually pretty rare and usually suit-oriented anyway.

If you don't mind, what would you suggest for our 2N limit raise+ auctions? Some symmetry would be nice, but....

[awm]

What you have is okay. Maybe:

3C = not accept LR
... 3D relay for shortage
... 3M to play
... 3OM rkc
... 3nt-4D splinter

3D = accept LR
... 3H relay for shortage
... 3S rkc
... 3nt-4D splinter

3H = strong with 6+M
... 3S relay for shortage
3S = strong two suited with clubs
... 3nt asks shortage
3nt = strong two suited with diams
... 4C asks shortage
4m = strong two suited with OM (shortage)

[straube]

Thank you. I think your decision to opt for showing opener's second suit rather than a void mirrors what most are choosing for Jacoby 1M-2N, 4L rebids. It also got me thinking that if opener is really interested in this sort of information (for example he is balanced), he can just relay the hand, so maybe we should devote more machinery to showing responder's hand. For example...

1) singletons
2) voids
3) second suits missing important honors
4) solid second suits missing controls

If this is a good direction, then it would follow that 1M-2N, 3C would be semi-automatic in order to preserve space for responder to describe his hand. So 1M-2N, 3D might convey serious slam interest and 1M-2N, 3H+ might be devoted to something rare like voids. You know, "my information is more important than whatever you wanted to tell me".

Since we're using FSJs of 3N, 4C, and 4D to 1M they might double as "second suits missing important honors" with the exception of 1H-4D specifically and opener could cue bid with a fitting honor in most instances.

1M-2N, 3C-

3D-a singleton
3M-LR
3OM-a void
3N-asks control of clubs (say Axxxx x AKQxx xx)
4C-asks control of diamonds
4D-asks control of OM

[foobar]

Here's another structure I have played:

1M - 2N:

3♣: GF, asks for shortness, responder bids No/High/Medium/Low with slam interest or signs off in game
3♦: Counter invite, responder signs off or gives No/High/Medium/Low with slam interest
3M: Very poor hand, responder bids No/High/Medium/Low with slam interest
3OM/3N/4♣/4♦: Void with slam interest

If responder shows slam interest with no shortness over 3♣/3♦, opener responds with the same.

[straube]

Before settling on a structure, we have to decide how we are going to handle responder's balanced GF hands. We have a relay bid of 2C available and Atul feels that we are going to get frequent interference and that it's best to jack the bidding to the 3-level immediately. So I'm interested in how others feel about this because if we can relay with the balanced hands then we've a lot more machinery we can devote (for 1M-2N) to responder's unbalanced hands.

[Kungsgeten]

Here's another variant, developed by Mats Nilsland in Sweden:

1M-2NT;
3C = extras
3D = Min
3H = extras, club side suit
3S = extras, diamond side suit
3NT = extras, side suit in other major
4CDH = Side suit and two singletons

Two singletons could be 6511 or 7411.

After opener's 3C responder can relay for shortness, bid the major to deny slam interest, bid 3NT as a suggestion to play or a new suit as natural/spl (what you prefer). When relaying opener bids step one with no spl, step 2-4 with singleton and 5+ steps with void.

When opener responds 3D responder can bid the major as a limit raise (NF), suggest 3NT or ask for SPL with 3oM.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2014-June-22, 03:12, said:

Before settling on a structure, we have to decide how we are going to handle responder's balanced GF hands. We have a relay bid of 2C available and Atul feels that we are going to get frequent interference and that it's best to jack the bidding to the 3-level immediately. So I'm interested in how others feel about this because if we can relay with the balanced hands then we've a lot more machinery we can devote (for 1M-2N) to responder's unbalanced hands.

If your 1M-2♣ GFR is made on all non fitting game forces, and maybe some fitting balanced GFs as well, the vast majority of the time it will be the non fitting variety. Honestly I think you'd have to be pretty crazy to want to come in as 4th hand with a preempt on that auction - you may screw up their relays but you're offering up a free option to saw you off doubled when they were just going to play 3N instead. Adding a few balanced fitting hands to the 2♣ bid shouldn't change advancer's decision process much. I think you're probably more likely to get interference over 1M-2N than 1M-2♣, since when you've got a big unbalanced major fit, they can throw in a lead directing 3X bid without much risk you'll forgo your 4M game to try for a penalty.