[manudude03]

Last night, my partner gave me some notes on a convention he used to play and wants to start playing with me, but apart from thinking it's just poor in general (especially the responses), I'm also concerned about the legality of it (especially the 2D opening). Also, using the EBU's convention regulations, what level does it come in there?

2D opening:
a) 21/22 HCP balanced or
b) 9-13 HCP and at least 5/5 in one of the following options:
- spades and clubs
- diamonds and hearts (with better diamonds)
- hearts and spades (with better hearts)

2H opening
9-15 HCP 5+hearts, 5+ minor (when diamonds, then it will have better hearts)

2S opening
8-15HCP 5+spades, 5+ diamonds/hearts

As for the responses to the above, it is HCP-based step responses, and yes, he is obsessed with finding out about HCP before learning more about shape.

[helene_t]

The question is if 9-13 HCPs counts as "below average strength" when the shape is 5-5. If counting ZAR points I suppose almost nothing would be a BSC, if the director is a walrus then this is a BSC. I think you could get away with it.

[paulg]

Helene raises the main issue, which is the WBF regulation (PDF) and its definition of 'Average Hand' as "a hand containing 10 high card points (Milton Work) with no distributional values". So can an average hand have fewer than 10 HCP if it has distributional values? I'm not sure any of us have seen an answer to this but you could ask the WBF Systems Committee.

My feeling is that the WBF is very focused on HCP, given the definitions of 'Weak' and 'Strong', and its intent is to disregard distributional values from definitions - I may be wrong.

So my view is that 2♦ is a Brown Sticker convention and the 2M openers are not. By changing the range of the weaker options to 10-13 HCP, then 2♦ would not be a Brown Sticker convention.

In terms of the EBU, the 2M openers are Level 2. The 2♦ opener looks like it would be Level 5 as long as it is not a Brown Sticker convention so personally I don't think it will be permitted in EBU events although one of EBU directors or L&EC members on the forum are far better qualified to comment.

[Cyberyeti]

2M are fine EBU, you would have to take out the hearts/diamonds from 2♦ to make it level 4 legal, you are allowed any number of combinations of suits provided the suit opened is not among them, the rest is fine.

[FrancesHinden]

The 2D bid isn't legal in the EBU at level 4 because it neither promises nor denies diamonds.
It is also a BSC and hence only EBU-legal at level 5 or in WBF events when these are permitted (i.e. not very many)
If it were 10+ hcp it would be allowed at L5

[paulg]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-June-03, 07:27, said:

It is also a BSC and hence only EBU-legal at level 5 or in WBF events when these are permitted (i.e. not very many)

Brown Sticker conventions are not permitted at EBU Level 5 (unless they are permitted at Level 4) as they are not permitted in WBF/EBL Category 3 events.

[RMB1]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-June-03, 07:27, said:

.
It is also a BSC and hence only EBU-legal at level 5 or in WBF events when these are permitted (i.e. not very many)
If it were 10+ hcp it would be allowed at L5

paulg, on 2014-June-03, 08:32, said:

Brown Sticker conventions are not permitted at EBU Level 5 (unless they are permitted at Level 4) as they are not permitted in WBF/EBL Category 3 events.

Frances' last line suggests she meant to write something different on the previous line.

[manudude03]

Thanks for the responses, I'll tell him next time I see him that it's out, and maybe educate him on some of the regulations (at some point when he was going over the notes, he said weak was 15-, and he keeps going on about there being 8 systems that can be played- something I have never seen the reference)

[Vampyr]

paulg, on 2014-June-03, 02:53, said:

Helene raises the main issue, which is the WBF regulation (PDF) and its definition of 'Average Hand' as "a hand containing 10 high card points (Milton Work) with [size="2"]no distributional values". So can an average hand have fewer than 10 HCP if it has distributional values?

Obviously it cannot according to the WBFLC regulation. If "no distributional values" is not clear enough, the absence of "or compensating distribution" should erase any doubt.

But the regulation was presumably written by the WBFLC, so I suppose one can never be entirely sure.

[blackshoe]

I would take "10 HCP with no distributional values" to mean that if a hand has 10 HCP and distributional values, it is a better than average hand. I would not take it to mean that no average hand has distributional values.

I would accept the verdict of a qualified grammarian that I'm wrong. Or, perhaps, of the WBF committee responsible for the regulation, though in the latter case I would suggest to them that they need to rethink the wording.

[FrancesHinden]

RMB1, on 2014-June-03, 09:17, said:

Frances' last line suggests she meant to write something different on the previous line.

There are a few EBU L5 events which also allow BSCs and HUMs (premier league being the obvious example)

[manudude03]

A bit of an update on this:

I told him last Monday that he wouldn't be allowed to play that convention. He replied that whenever he made it up, he had extensively checked the orange book to make sure it was legal and he felt that based on reading it that it was allowed. Not really knowing what to say to that, I nicely told him to check it again since it changes every year (though highly suspecting it hasn't been legal in at least a decade) and told him about the similarities to Wilkozc 2D, so he agreed to check again. When we met up again on Thursday, he told me that the only thing that was wrong with the 2D opening was that you couldn't call a 13 count weak and so he wanted to change the range to 8-12. I plan on printing out various parts of the blue book today to try and show him that he can't. Looking at the blue book pdf, I'm guessing it's 7C1 that covers the issue. From what I gather, he was planning to get it through by essentially calling it a multi [8C2(a)2].

[helene_t]

But Wayne, the Orange book is not about BSC's. Do you follow EBU or EBL regulations in NI?

[manudude03]

As far as systems regulations go, EBU, but I was 99.99....% sure that it being a BSC would automatically mean it couldn't be played at club level anyway.

[helene_t]

Yes and no. You could make this convention BSC proof by raising 9-13 to 10-13 (or insisting that the 9-counts are not "below average strength"). It would still not be allowed at level 4, though. So in this respect, EBU is more restrictive. Also, the Apstro-like 2-openings (2♣ showing 4 hearts with a canape suit which may or may not be clubs) are not BSC but you can't play it at level 4.

OTOH there are other conventions which are OK at EBU level 4 although they are BSC: You can play any multi-like opening such as for example 2♣ as showing a 5-card in a red suit.

[paulg]

manudude03, on 2014-June-16, 02:41, said:

As far as systems regulations go, EBU, but I was 99.99....% sure that it being a BSC would automatically mean it couldn't be played at club level anyway.

The EBU permits a wide variety of two- and three-level opening bids at Level 4 (which is what most clubs will play), many of which are Brown Sticker conventions. This reflects a basic difference in philosophy between the EBU and WBF: the EBU permits almost any opening that either promises or denies the suit opened which allows the meaning of double to be fairly clear; the WBF insists that all the weak options guarantee 4+ cards in a specific suit.

So common BSCs permitted by the EBU include a 2♠ or 2NT opener showing a pre-empt in a minor and 3♦ as a major-suit pre-empt.

[manudude03]

Leaving BSC issues aside, I guess the question comes down to whether or not the 2D opener satisfies

EBU Blue book 8C2 said:

Alternatively, a 2 opening may be played to contain a weak option and one or two strong
options.
(a) Weak option
A defined range of no more than 5 HCP, a minimum strength of 4 HCP and a maximum
of 12 HCP. The agreed strength may differ according to position and/or vulnerability.
The suit may be played as either (i) 5+ hearts; or (ii) 5+ hearts or 5+ spades

or is the above only for single-suited hands?

edit: The clubs I play at use the "old" level 3.

[helene_t]

manudude03, on 2014-June-16, 06:07, said:

or is the above only for single-suited hands?

7 C 1 (b) (iv) 2 allows two-suited hands as long as neither of the two suits is the suit opened, in this case diamonds.

[campboy]

manudude03, on 2014-June-16, 06:07, said:

or is the above only for single-suited hands?

It's not only for single-suited hands, but it can't guarantee a second suit.