[benlessard]

The basic idea is that after a 1♦ opening the 1♥ response show spades while the 1♠ response show H and denies 4S (unless GF). By bidding 1♥ when you hold both majors and by using a 1♠ artificial rebid you maximize the frequency of the 1♦-1♥-1♠ start that is underused in standard, so in the end you get more overall bidding space. This economic start will combine with a XYZ setup in an efficient way.

For many players 1♦-1♥-1♠ is unbalanced while 1♦-1♥-1NT is balanced but opener may have 4S. Bypassing the S could lose the 4-4 S fit if responder is weak, its somewhat annoying since the 1♦-1♥-1♠ is underused anyway. 1♦-1♥-1♠ where opener got 4S but responder doesnt  often turn out to be shooting blank anyway and is often helping the defense more than offense.
 
Ive managed to put all the hands with both M into 1♥, so 1♦-2♥/2♠ is free for whatever you want, its only when 5H+4S GF strenght that I think its better to bid 1S with both M (but bidding 1H might work too).
This inversion scheme does have some convulated sequences so i will only recommended it if you already master XYZ and if you already play transfers over 1C.
  
One of the biggest strenght of the inversion (and the gadget 1♠ rebid) is 1♦-1♥-?? where all bids other than 1♠, deny 3S or 4H. Allowing you to avoid BW death hand (good hand with 3 card support) and avoid many useless checkback or 4th suit GF that will only help the defense and allow lead directing X. The 2nd biggest strenght is that it will rightside more often. The main drawback is really the lead directing double of 1H and 1S.

Anyway here it is...  (****) = quite different that usual XYZ or standard method.


1♦-1♥-??
1♠ = 4H or 3S any strenght
1NT =   (1NT   denies  3S,4H,6D,4C unless 2254,1354 with M concentration)
2♣ =  (denies  3S,4H)
2♦ = 6D (denies  3S,4H)
2♥ = 4 trumps S raise with some extras or GF.
2♠ = S raise 4 trumps min that would refuse an invite.
2NT = nat (denies  3S,4H)

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-?? (1♥ = 4+S may have longer H. 1♠ rebid = 4H or 3S any strenght
1NT not forcing denies 4H and 4D, may have 5S.
2♣ XYZ to play 2♦ or to show many inv hand.
2♦ like XYZ, weak with 4H or 5s5h, art GF, 6M inv (4S+6H inv or 6S INV)  ****
2♥ 5+H not inv NF (46,45) opener will correct to 2♠ with 31 but not 32.
2♠ 6S not inv denies 4H
2NT INV exactly 4S without 4H could be relay to 3♣ if its in your usual XYZ scheme.

 
 1♦-1♥-1♠-1NT-??
2♣ natural minimum but promising 3S, 3154,3244
2♦ natural minimum but promising 3S (with 4H+6D you need to pass 1NT or reverse)
2♥ reverse could be a bit lighter than usual.
2♠  3 card raise with extras

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-?? (2♣ is Xyz)
2♦ = many shapes 11-16
2♥ = reverse 16+
2♠ = 3 card raise with extras.
2NT = bal 18-19 with 3S
rest always show 3S and 17+

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-??
2♥ = inv with 4 or 5H
2♠= inv with exactly 5S denies 4H
2NT = INV 
3m = INV

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦--?? (2♦ is art gf or weak with 4H or 6M inv)
2♥ i have 4H
2♠ i have 3S but deny 4H
2NT = very strong with 4H ******
rest  = very strong with 3S denies 4H

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥--??  (opener had 4H)
2♠ = inv with 6S ****
rest is GF

 
1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♠--??  (opener had 3S)
2NT = INV with 4S+6H ****
rest is GF

[benlessard]

Opener doesnt have 3S or 4H

1♦-1♥-1NT-??    (1NT   denies  3S,4H,6D,4C unless 2254,1354 with M concentration)
2♣ = to play 2♦ or many inv hands
2♦ = Art GF
2♥ = to play at least 5H
2♠ = to play at least 6S
2NT Inv could have 5S &or 4H  (you may use 2NT as relay to 3♣) and use 2♣-2♦-2NT (XY) as inv.
rest is GF
 
The other sequence should be the same than usual XYZ except the invs will show 5H or 6S since opener denied 4H and 3S.
 

1♦-1♥-2♣--?? (2♣ denies 3S and 4H)
2♦ = pref
2♥ = 4th suit INV (Pavlicek style) all the inv hands are in 2H ****
2♠ = natural 6S.
rest is GF

 
1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥--??
2♠ I refuse a S inv
2NT is super accept a S inv but my hand is minimum
3♣ = min but 0355 or 0265 shape.
rest is GF

 
1♦-1♥-2♦--??  (2♦ denies 3S,4H,4C unless 6D4C with great D)
2♥ To play *******
2♠ to play
2NT inv
3♣ art GF

 
Responder doesnt have 4S


1♦-1♠-?? (1♠ denies 4S and show 4H)
1NT nat could be 4144 or 4153
2♣ nat, could be 3 card if too strong for 1NT rebid but not enough to reverse.
2♦ nat
2♥  raise could be 3 card
2♠ = could be done just with reverse strenght (not a jump shift)

 
1♦-1♠-1NT-??
2♣ relay to 2♦ to play or inv hands (XYX)
2♦ art GF
2♥ to play show 6H
2♠ 5H+4S GF

There is surely a way to make a distinction between 6H inv and 5H inv but im not sure its worth the extra complications.

[Fluffy]

Overall I think this works great, but beware of competition. Prepare specially for club overcalls:

1♦-pass-1♥-pass
1♠-2♣


1♦-pass-1♥-2♣


1♦-pass-1♥-3♣


Having longer hearts will really hurt you when they compete. You might need some extra tools.

[benlessard]

A comparaison of some sequences. Standard = opener doesnt bypass spades unless he can raise 4H.
 
STANDARD------------------------------------------------------------------------------------INVERSION

1♦-1♥-2♠ strong jump *****---------------------------------------------4 trumps min single raise
1♦-1♥-2♥  Single raise (3or4)------------------------------------------4 trumps some extras
1♦-1♠-2♠   single raise-(3or4)-------------------------------------------------reverse
1♦-1♠-2♥   reverse------------------------------------------------------single raise always 4

 
1♦-1♠-1NT-2♥ - you may have no fit -------------------------------------responder repeating his M
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥   responder repeating his M-------------------------Sure to have a 5-3 H unless 2254
1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥   responder repeating his M-----------------------4th suit INV  (able to stop in 2S)
1♦-1♠-2♣-2♥    4SGF or 4th suit INV (being able to stop in 2S)--------------r repeating his M
 
1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥    has to be forcing--------------------------------------- r repeating his M
1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥    responder repeating his M----------------------------------NF promising 5H
1♦-1♠-2♦-2♠    responder repeating his M---------------------------------reverse by responder 
1♦-1♥-2♦-2♠    reverse by responder (only H fit is possible)--------------r repeating his M
 
With 64?? weak
1♦-1♠-1NT-2♠-------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥ never miss the 4-4 H fit
1♦-1♠-2m-2♠ --------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♥ never miss the 4-4 H fit
 
55?? weak
1♦-1♠-1NT-2♥------------------------------------------ 1♦-1♥-1NT-2♦-2♠ or 1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥
opener doesnt know what to do with 2S+3H------------------ always find the 5-3 fit

 
1♦-1♠-2♦-?
responder doesnt have a good solution since 2♥ is forcing---------1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ (to play)
 
1♦-1♠-2♣-??   (opener could be 3154 & 1354)-------------cannot be 3154 but can be 1354
                     
54?? weak

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♥ (may have no fit) ----------------1♦-1♥-1NT pass know we dont have a fit.
 
46?? weak

1♦-1♥-1♠-2♠-3♠ -------------------4-4 S fit--------1♦-1♥-(2♥or2♠) you avoid the 3 level.
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥ --------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥ to play
1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ -----------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ tend to play (but could be 5)
1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ ------------------------------------2♥ is not to play so ill play 3H or 2m
 
45?? weak

1♦-1♥-1♠-2♠-3♠ -----------4-4 S fit--------------1♦-1♥-(2♥or2♠) you avoid the 3 level.
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥ ---------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1NT-2♥ to play
1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ --------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ tend to play (but could be 5)
1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥ ----------------------------------here my 2♥ is not to play so ill play 3H or 2m
 
5??? weak

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♠-------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-1nt
responder may bid 2♠ with 5 and hit 1453--------------- (may miss 53 fit if opener is 3343)
44?? weak (without 4D)
1♦-1♥-1NT-p-------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♠-p

With 64?? INV

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-??--------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥ 
guess between 2♥ and 2♠--------------------------------------- never miss the 4-4 H fit
1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥------------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♦-3♠
2♥ is art GF or any inv ------------------------Im stuck too but I didnt miss a 4-4 H fit
 
55?? INV

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥----------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥
opener doesnt know what to do with 2S+3H------------------------- always find the 5-3 fit
 
 
1♦-1♠-2♦-3♥-----------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♦-2♥ chicken
------------------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♦-3♥ INV
  
1♦-1♠-2♣-3♥--------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♣-2♥-??-3♥

Tough, but slightly better for inversion since S fit is out and if responder bid 2♥ it show 5.

                     
54?? INV

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥ -------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2NT 
  (may have no fit)--------------------------------------------know  we dont have a fit.

46?? INV

1♦-1♥-1♠-3♠ -------------opener got 4s----------1♦-1♥-(2♥or2♠) you may avoid the 3 level.
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥ -----------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦-2♠-2NT
can stop in 2H----------------------------------------------------------------will play 2NT or 3H
1♦-1♥-2♦-?? ------------------------both will go to 3♥ to inv.
1♦-1♥-2♣-?? --------------------------both will go to go to 3♥ to inv.
 
45?? INV

1♦-1♥-1♠-2♠-3♠ -------------opener got 4s-------------1♦-1♥-(2♥or2♠) you avoid the 3 level.
1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥ -------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥  (may play 2♠ instead of 2♥)
1♦-1♥-2♦-2NT  same problems for both. 
1♦-1♥-2♣-2NT  same problems for both.  
 
5??? INV

1♦-1♠-1NT-2♣-2♦-2♠-------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1nt-2Nt
May hit opener with stiff S----------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♠
 
44?? INV

1♦-1♥-2♥-3♥--------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥
1♦-1♥-1NT-2Nt-----------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT
1♦-1♥-1♠-3♠---------------------------------------------------1♦-1♥-2♠ avoid the 3 level
With any 4-4M fit where opener is dead minimum & responder is limit you play 2M
while in standard you reach 3M this is a huge plus.

[benlessard]

Here is a list of advantages

1————————————-
1D-1H!-???

2NT,3C,3D denies 3S card support & 4H. Great for slam bidding or for stopping some lead direct X.

2————————————-
1D–1S (showing H but denying S) is better than
1D–1S (showing S but may have 4H)

3————————————-
When opener hold a dead min and opener hold INV with 4S or 4S+4H and you hit a M fit you will stop in 2M not in 3M.

instead of
1D-1H-2H-3H or 2NT
1D-1H-1S-3S (unless you play XYZ)

it will go
1D-1H-2S pass
1D-1H-1S-2C-2D-2H-P (2H is inv with 4-5H)

4————————————-
When you hold 5S+5H you always play in the 5-3 fit unless
opener is 2254 or that he rebid 2C.

5————————————
When you hold 45?? or 44?? you never miss the 4-4 S fit compared to the style where 1D-1H-1NT could have 4s.


6————————————
No more 3 card or 4 card raises when holding spades.

1D-1S-2S (3 or 4) is replaced by

1D-1H-??
1S with 3, 2H with 4 but extras,2S with 4 dead min.

7————————————-
No more no fit situation at the 2 level when
54?? vs 1354 or 2344. You stop at 1Nt.

8—————————————–
When opener got 6D you wont miss a 5-3 S fit and you will be able to stop in 2H when opener is holding 5S+5H

9—————————————–
When responder is 6S+4H you will always find the H fit if there is one otherwise you will play 2S. You wont play 2H in 4-3 fit.

10—————————————-
When responder got 5??? and opener got a stiff you wont play 2S.

11—————————–
When opener got 3244 or 3154 you wont miss the S fit and may easily stop in 2C.

12——————————
Often hit a good 5-2 H fit.

1264 (with good D and bad clubs) or 1273 vs 5s5h

13——————————
Rebidding 1NT with a stiff is less of a problem

1D-1S-1NT is equivalent of 1D-1S!-1NT (where the suit is switched)

but
1D-1H-1NT (with 3154) switched to 1354 is not a problem in my system since responder wont reapeat a 5M.

14——————————
Rightsiding many M contract.

15—————————–
extras sequence of XYZ when responder got H but no S

1D-1S-1NT any 2S bid (after or before XYZ) will be artificial or nat GF

16—————————–
You have a good 3 card S raise and a bad 3 card S raise (except 3442)

[straube]

Hi Ben, thanks for posting your progress. How does the bidding go if opener has Ax Kxxx Kxxx Qxx and responder has Qxxx Axxx xx JTx? Does opener rebid 1N giving up on the heart fit (as some rebid 1N losing out on a spade fit with 4243 in standard)?

[benlessard]

straube, on 2014-May-23, 07:21, said:

Hi Ben, thanks for posting your progress. How does the bidding go if opener has Ax Kxxx Kxxx Qxx and responder has Qxxx Axxx xx JTx? Does opener rebid 1N giving up on the heart fit (as some rebid 1N losing out on a spade fit with 4243 in standard)?

No responder bid 2D (that is normally art 100% GF in XYZ) and pass opener bid.

1D-1H-1S-2D-2H-pass

In this seq 2D is art gf or weak with 4H (with any number of spades) or 6M inv
This is by far the most weird spot of the system but ive double check this part and its working well.
The best part is that ill find the 4-4 H fit even with 6S4H.



However this mean that when opener is 3343 and responder 44?? ill endup in 2S instead of 1NT.

I guess its possible that when opener shape is 3343 he can (should ?) rebid 1NT instead of 1S. Because anyway holding this shape he wont be able to find the 5-3 S fit if responder is weak without 4H.

1D-1H-1S-1NT-??

here 2C,2D,2S show a 3card S fit but you with lenght or extras. So always with some shape.



As for comp bidding

1D--(P)--1S--(Y) im significantly in better shape than in standard since a 4-4 S fit is only possible if responder was GF. Responder will be able to make a takeout double with 2533/3532 without being afraid opener bid S.

after

1D--(P)--1H--(2C)--?? opener can make a support double,

responder double will show 4H 5422,5431,4432 or GF while if he rebid H it should be 5H NF IMO.

1D--(P)--1H--(2C)
P--(3C)--3H = NF

Opener denied 3S and 6D so hes got to have some hearts.

The way I see it, is that in standard

1D--(P)--1S--(2or3C)
??--(P)--??

The support double and responder bidding 3H or make a neg X seems to overlap anyway. When responder X or rebid 3H (forcing or not) hes showing longer spades something that was already covered by the failure to make a sup X. So its a duplication.

[straube]

Not sure, but I think your structure's advantages have less to do with inverting 1H and 1S and more to do with your use of opener's 1S rebid as a 2-way bid. Not sure. I suspect that a standard 1D-1H, 1S sequence would have similar advantages if 1S were 4 spades or 3 hearts, but I haven't mapped it out.

So I guess 1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D-2H shows an invitation with 4+ hearts and asks opener to pass with a minimum and 4 hearts or correct to a minimum with 3 spades or bid game in hearts with a max fit or perhaps 3S with a max and 3 spades.

I don't know. I'm not sure I like 1D-1H, 1S-1N, 2C for 3244 although it's certainly reasonable. Seems like it guarantees the opponents an 8+ card heart fit. With 3253 or 3352 does opener rebid diamonds here?

After 1D-1H, 1S-2D opener can't rebid 2H with a hand that would jump raise hearts. Like opener could have Axx AKxx Axxxx x and won't want to be dropped in 2H. So opener bids something else presumably.

Not sure that 1D-1H, 2D-2H should be nf. You're actually less likely to find a major suit fit than after a standard 1D-1S, 2D because you've eliminated the possibility of opener having 3 spades or 4 hearts while in the standard auction opener could have either one. So 2H should be an artificial GF imo.

Similarly I think 1D-1S, 2D-2S should be an artificial GF (possibly reverse if you like) but not just a reverse.

It seems like your method would have more advantages for unlimited openings (not strong club) because your 1S rebid being 2-way slows the auction down when it needs to be slowed down. Playing a strong club, I just want to know what partner has and I'm not particularly worried about the death hand. I'm more interested in passing 1D-1H, 1S natural or relaying partner's shape with 1D-1H, 1S-2D artificial GF.

Nice job fleshing it out. I think it's interesting and you certainly have some good sequences. I don't understand it fully like you do, but if you're looking for opinions I'm still a bit skeptical of it. Curious what others think.

[benlessard]

Quote

Not sure, but I think your structure's advantages have less to do with inverting 1H and 1S and more to do with your use of opener's 1S rebid as a 2-way bid. Not sure. I suspect that a standard 1D-1H, 1S sequence would have similar advantages if 1S were 4 spades or 3 hearts, but I haven't mapped it out.

Very good question and im not 100% sure too. Im strongly convinced that 1S should be artificial in both case (not just forcing), however when there is further competition its better to have promise spades than H if you had both MM.

1D-(P)-1H-(3C)-??

if the 1H show spades and the support X show 3S responder can bid 3H/4H with 5or6H+4S with some safety.

the opposite isnt so true. The 1H show H or both M, and support X show 3H, its less safe for responder to bid 3S/4S with 5/6S+4H.

Same for 1D-1H-2D-2Hor3H with 55-54-46 its quite safe and great to bid 2H NF (to play up to slight inv) since the fact that opener denied 3S make it highly likely that hes got at least 2H, with 3H support he need little to be able to raise. Same for a sound INV with 4+S & 5+H

2164 vs 5503, 1D-1H-2D-(2Hor3H) -2S/3S (i dont have 3S but my S are better than my H)

1264 vs 5503 1D-1H-2D (1H = showing H) bidding 2S/3S NF wont work as well.

I used to believe that canape was slightly unsound, but after my strong club opening (with transfers that we accept with 3)

1C-1D-1H (1D = 4H or pts, 1H could be 3 NF)
1C-1H-1S (1H=S 1S = could be 3)

something weird happened, we found out that 4M+5m were easier to bid than 5M+4m this didnt surprised me but its the weak 4S+5H and 5S+4H that often turn out to be easier when you bid the shorter M first. If partner accept the transfer you pass playing 1M in 43, if he doesnt you can safely bid your 2nd suit.

But the biggest reason for switching is rightsiding. Ive been playing transfer over a strong club and over X for 10 years so im an "rightside" addict now. The 11-15 vs 5-9 with 4-4M fit that will get rightsided are worth more than the lead direct that im allowing IMO. I was lucky that my 1st serious partner was a transfer addict and played stuff like 2 under transfers and transfers advances in the early 80's so I was forced to learned them early in my bridge "career".

Note that the lead direct X that is annoying is 1D-1H-(X) or (1S) Michael/raptor.

After 1D-1S(h)--(X) showing spades is no big deal since the overcall was available anyway. They may X more agressively but we may play 1Sxx and forcing passes instead of 1Sx so its probably break even.

Quote

So I guess 1D-1H, 1S-2C, 2D-2H shows an invitation with 4+ hearts and asks opener to pass with a minimum and 4 hearts or correct to a minimum with 3 spades or bid game in hearts with a max fit or perhaps 3S with a max and 3 spades

Yes but its 4H or 5H INV (not 6H INV), this mean that with 33?? min vs 45?? inv ill play 2S instead of 2H but that doesnt bother me since we have inv values, finding the best fit when weak is more important than when resp is inv & opener is min.

Quote

After 1D-1H, 1S-2D opener can't rebid 2H with a hand that would jump raise hearts. Like opener could have Axx AKxx Axxxx x and won't want to be dropped in 2H. So opener bids something else presumably.

2NT is 17+ with 4H, and rest is 17+ with 3S, because of the sure fit your hand qualify for 2NT. I guess there is some hand that are only worth 17 after the 4-4H fit is found and we may miss game, but the problem is the same in standard, with some 4H+6D 15 pts. If you hit 4H you hand is reverse while if not 3D might be too high. So instead of 1D-1S-2D-P where 4H is making because opener is 5S+4H making. ill play 2H. Note that I may use 1D-2H to solve some problems. I tend to prefer WJS as 4-7. So that when I rebid my M its 8-10 and when I inv its serious stuff.

Quote

Similarly I think 1D-1S, 2D-2S should be an artificial GF (possibly reverse if you like) but not just a reverse.

Yes its advantage 15 in my list , 2S by responder will never be to play, after or before XYZ or in other sequence.

Quote

It seems like your method would have more advantages for unlimited openings (not strong club) because your 1S rebid being 2-way slows the auction down when it needs to be slowed down. Playing a strong club, I just want to know what partner has and I'm not particularly worried about the death hand. I'm more interested in passing 1D-1H, 1S natural or relaying partner's shape with 1D-1H, 1S-2D artificial GF.

Your 100% right. My strong club system is funky since our 1D openings are 11-22 always 4+ unb, my 1D structure is awesome right now but not Midchart (I think). 1D-1H is 3H or 10+, so I needed something in backup & something to play in MP or in clubs.

There is also some subsidies if we win district finals (NAP or other stuff) and my partner is Russian with little or no MP so I might try to shark it and win in the "B". Its way more expensive for Canadians to travel to National and other tournament in the US.

I agree that what im trying to do hit a very narrow window

1- You need to master XYZ
2- Already play transfers over 1C
3- At least some knowledge of the canape inference.
4- 1D is 11-21

[benlessard]

Quote

I don't know. I'm not sure I like 1D-1H, 1S-1N, 2C for 3244 although it's certainly reasonable. Seems like it guarantees the opponents an 8+ card heart fit. With 3253 or 3352 does opener rebid diamonds here?

Very good catch, ive used this for 3154 & 3244 but the 3154 is nearly impossible (they have 9 card fit and at least 17 pts) and the 3244 like you say show them they have a 8 card H fit. Thanks a lot !

I guess some extras with short S and 4H +3C could be whats best. Strongish 1444,1453,0463 are going to be more frequent and more important.

Its possible to play 2C as extras forcing but I dont see how i could untangle 4Hor3S after it, it will free up 2H but i dont really know what to put there anyway.

For the 3?5?, I think 2D with both is probably best, since responder denied having 4H we are very likely to have a pointed fit.

If ive got a 3253 it mean they have a 8 card H fit but at least they wont be 100% sure about it.

Maybe I can use 2C to show D+3S or strong hands and 2D to show 6D+4H min.

[awm]

It sometimes seems like the method you're comparing to changes to always be the worst possible in any sequence. Let me give a coherent natural alternative and go through some sequences. My methods are as follows:

1. Natural responses, longer major if unequal, 1♥ with 4-4, 1♠ with 5-5.
2. Opener rebids 1♠ over 1♦-1♥ with four spades and less than four hearts, even if balanced, unless GF.
3. Opener rebids 1NT over 1♦-1♠ with minimum 1444 and 1453 hands.
4. After opener's 1-level rebid, XYZ.
5. After 1♦-1♠-2♦, 2♥ is natural NF; 2♠ is F1 and at least invitational.

If responder has no 4-card major, this method doesn't really matter, so I can skip that case. We have:

1. Responder has 4+♥ and does not have 4♠.

If opener four hearts we start 1♦-1♠-2♥ or 1♦-1♥-2♥. Things are pretty similar except for the siding issue, which could be to your advantage on a partial but is probably to my advantage on a game deal (your declarer hand is much better described, having shown two suits, and may well be the weaker of the two hands). If opener has three hearts and unbalanced, my auction generally starts 1♦-1♥-1♠-some rebid-heart raise which gives a really good picture of the hand, whereas your auction probably starts 1♦-1♠-2♥ and responder doesn't even know whether opener has 3 vs. 4 trumps much less what the shortage is. Big advantage to my style. On other opener hands, you have a somewhat awkward sequence on 4153/4144 minimums while I don't have this problem. I also have an advantage when opener has a game force with spades (2♠ rebid; you 2♠ rebid also but it's only a one-round force). And of course I can play in 1♠ after 1♦-1♥-1♠ if responder is minimum and the 4-3 looks like our best spot. It feels like I'm pretty far ahead here.

2. Responder has 4+♠ and does not have 4♥.

If opener has four spades we start 1♦-1♥-2♠ or 1♦-1♠-2♠ and things are again pretty similar except for the siding issue as in 1. If opener has three spades, you can distinguish this via 1♦-1♥-1♠ whereas I have to choose to either raise or rebid 1nt/2♦ over 1♦-1♠. However, when responder is invitational-plus this is unlikely to matter very much (I can clarify support at next turn) so it's mostly important on partial deals. Advantage to your style though. If opener has fewer than three spades, I am bidding 1♦-1♠-some natural rebid, whereas your auction may start 1♦-1♥-1♠ (if opener has hearts). Because of the way you've defined opener's third bid, it seems you are playing 1nt if opener has x46x or 0454 minimums (whereas I am bidding 1♦-1♠-2m and probably reaching a better partial -- yes I think it is usually better to play in opener's six card suit than 1nt when opener has a 6-4 min hand and responder is fairly weak); you are also having some difficulties with 1444 types a bit above a weak notrump (I have an easy 1♦-1♠-2♣ start, you are starting 1♦-1♥-1♠-1nt and the next rebid is tough).

3. Responder has 4♥/4♠

My auction will always find any 4-4 fit by bidding up the line, and I can play in 1nt when opener is balanced and no 4-4 fit materializes. I might play in a 4-3 heart fit if opener has 1-3 in the majors (but this is probably decent with the ruffing value). You are finding any 4-4 fit too, but you will play a 4-3 spade fit very often when there is no 8-card major fit on the auction 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♦ (weak with 4♥ in this case) - 2♠; this includes balanced opener shapes that may not be really suitable for raising (even 3343?) so I'd count this as a definite negative.

4. Responder has 4♥/5♠

Your auction starts 1♦-1♥ and opener bids 1♠ with any fit. My auction starts 1♦-1♠ and I'm fine if opener raises or rebids 1NT. With a 1444/1453 min I'm rebidding 1NT too (so I find the heart fit easily); with extras I'm probably also okay. The bad shape for me is the rare minimum 0454 when responder is weak, so you win there.

5. Responder has 5♥/4♠

My auction starts 1♦-1♥ and I should easily find any fit (opener rebids 1♠ if we have a fit there, raises hearts with 4-support or 1-3 majors, rebids 1nt on balanced hands which can be corrected to hearts guaranteeing at least a 5-2). Your auction starts 1♦-1♥ showing spades, and if opener rebids 1♠ or 1NT next you're fine. However, you will miss a few fits where opener has a 1354/1363, because your auction will presumably start 1♦-1♥-2m and now there is no easy way to reach the 5-3 heart fit (in fact even if responder has an invitational hand it might be awkward). Seems like a win for my style here.

6. Responder has 5+/5+ in the majors.

Problem sequence for me is 1♦-1♠-2m, where I might miss a 5-3 heart fit if responder is fairly weak. You have a similar problem after 1♦-1♥-2m, since again opener is not going out of his way to show 3-card support for the unbid major.

Overall I would rate this as a significant win for my natural approach on 1, a small win for my approach on 3 and 5, a small win for your approach on 4, and pushes on 2 and 6. Not to mention that my style is much simpler. Consider me unconvinced.

[benlessard]

1- responder got 4H but not 4S.

How can a start where 1D-1S (show 4H, but deny 4S) can be worse than a style where 1D-1S (show 4S, but may have 4H) or 1D-1H show 4H but may have spades ? Im puzzled. Ive rarely seen a situation where a bid that has a similar meaning but more precise is going to be at a disadvantage than a wider ranging one. Yes after 1D-1S we are one step higher, but youve showned a suit & managed to deny a suit at the same time. Its more than an adequate compensation, the same way 1D-1NT is not wasting space.

For comp bidding however its going to make a difference. After 1D-(P)-1H-?? they can X to show S+C or they can bid 1S. After 1D-(P)-1S-?? only one of those option is available.

1D-(P)-1S-(3C)
?? here opener doesnt need to worry about showing the spades with a good hand and 4S.
if opener pass responder can make a takeout X with short spades knowing only D and H is suggested. Responder can also bid 3S as GF natural (45??) vs X and 3S as artificial (stopper or half stopper ask)


If they dont compete and...

a) Opener doesnt have 4H.

Not only 1D-1H-1S will wrongside many level of NT contracts, it will tell them to lead clubs rather than S.

if opener jump to 2NT 1D-1H-2NT and the final contract is 4H its a major wrongside.

For a 3 card raise opener will be short in clubs and you dont really need to have bid 1S previously to show that.
1D-1S-2H (if its a 3 card raise) opener will rarely be 1354,1363, he will be 3361 or 4351, 3352 but I admit he could be 2353. Bidding spades before making the 3 card raise is a good way to show the support is only 3 card but its not perfect either, they will often lead trumps when its right or rightly lead spades instead of clubs knowing thats where the losers are.


b) Opener does have 4H, im going to rightside 2H,3H & most 4H contracts (when opener got a 3H bid and get raise) or bid 2H responder make a GT and opener accept. Its only when responder is stronger than opener that its a wrongside the odds look mighty good to me. I may also be able to choose who is declarer after a splinter sequence or a strong jump shift. But its a tricky thing to do and you must have previously have some experience with this to reap the full benefits.

If you feel you are far ahead here i honestly don't see what I can do.

[MickyB]

I only scanned Adam's post, but it seemed mention uncontested auctions only? Ben, you are way behind when 4th seat overcalls, because -

- You'll have problems sorting out all the major two-suiters after a 1H response
- You've not yet had responder bid his suit, eg 1D-P-1H-2H; 2S will be wrongsided a huge proportion of the time [sorry, I know I've already mentioned this point on BridgeWinners]

I think your idea of 1D:1H, 1S being ART has potential, but I think you would be better off starting from a base of 1M natural, 2H reverse Flannery.

[MickyB]

benlessard, on 2014-May-23, 03:02, said:

1D–1S (showing H but denying S) is better than
1D–1S (showing S but may have 4H)

No, no it isn't.

Quote

How can a start where 1D-1S (show 4H, but deny 4S) can be worse than a style where 1D-1S (show 4S, but may have 4H)

a) wrong-siding hearts after 4th seat overcalls
b) you'll have ugly auctions on 5D4S 16+

Quote

Ive rarely seen a situation where a bid that has a similar meaning but more precise is going to be at a disadvantage than a wider ranging one

Try creating responses to a 1S opening showing 5+hearts, can have four spades but not five. Similar meaning, more precise, but the step lost below 2M is very problematic [much more so than in the situation we are discussing].

[awm]

It's true I've ignored competitive auctions; I thought my post was long enough as it was. Here are some examples though:

1. Responder has 4+♥ without four spades:

You have removed a step from the opponents; this will make it harder for them to show one hand type. However, you've also kept overcaller off lead when the contract is hearts (compare 1♦-P-1♥-2♣-2♥ against 1♦-P-1♠-2♣-2♥) which actually means you play from the wrong side. Overall I'd say this is a small win for your style, since siding is generally overrated.

2. Responder has 4+♠ without four hearts:

Now you have given an extra step to the opponents. This allows them (for example) to show hearts cheaply and distinguish between a preemptive hand with hearts (overcall 2♥) versus a good hand with hearts (double and act again later) as well as showing a weaker hand with hearts that cannot safely bid at the two-level. Again you are wrong-siding when the contract is in spades. This comes to a fairly substantial win for my natural style (surely more than your win in case 1, since you have the wrong siding issue both times).

3. Responder has both majors:

Now it's to my advantage to have started by bidding the longer major. This makes it substantially easier to find 5-3 heart fits; for example say the natural auction goes 1♦-P-1♥-2♣-Dbl (3-card support)-3♣ and responder now knows about a 5-3 heart fit. Your alternative auction goes 1♦-P-1♥-2♣-Dbl/Pass-3♣ and you know whether you have a seven-card spade fit but no idea about the heart fit. Of course the siding issue also arises, since we are more likely to have a fit in responder's longer suit. There are also some issues in high-level auctions -- say we start 1♦-P-1♥-4♣-P-P and responder has a good enough hand to back in again, are you sure that you will always find an 8-card major fit? Overall this seems like an advantage for the natural style once again.

To summarize my general points:
1. Siding is overrated. There are many occasions where it is better to play the hand from responder's side, either because less is known about responder's shape (showed one suit not two) or because responder is actually stronger (game hands opposite min opener) or because 4th seat overcalled and putting him on lead is more important than letting the stronger hand play. In all I'd rate siding as actually a slight advantage for the natural scheme!
2. The use of space is fairly neutral -- the situations where you gain by responding 1♥ instead of 1♠ are roughly mirrored by the situations where you lose by responding 1♠ instead of 1♥. You might think this falls slightly your way (b/c the ratio of 1♥:1♠ responses is higher in your scheme) but this is counteracted by natural bidders being able to stop in 1♠ when that seems best and by natural bidders being able to avoid 4-3 spade fits when responder is 4-4 in the majors and opener is balanced without a major.
3. Showing the longer suit with a 5/4 hand is usually an advantage. This is especially true in competitive auctions but sometimes arises without competition as well. There are a lot of cases where you have trouble reaching a 5-3 heart fit after the 1♦-1♥ start which have no counterpart in natural bidding.

[benlessard]

Mike do you really believe that

1D–1S (showing 4+H but denying S) is not significantly better than
1D–1S (showing 4+S but may have 4H) ??

Do you think that

1C-1S or 1D-1NT denying 4M are inferior bids too ??

after 1D-1S-(2C)
Ill wrongside 2H but not if opener got any extras.

X will be support double,
2S will be stopper ask or regular cuebid
3C can be H fit & extras I want you to be declarer.

Same for 6D+4S hand with 16 pts, since partner denied 4S ill treat this hand the same way I would treat a 3163 or 3262 hands except that ive got a 2S rebid that can be full artificial.

Also when the same hand in standard when the bidding goes

1D-1H-1S-1NT are your problems magically over ? (i use 2C as art extras in standard here btw)

anyway for each case where bidding 1S in 1D-1H-1S help you ive got 2 cases on my own since this sequence is going to be way more frequent for me than for you. im going to finish edit this post later sorry..

[straube]

Ben's 1D-1S doesn't pose much more of a problem for opener with 4153 or 4144 than standard's 1D-1S when opener has 1453 or 1444 (We're aware of the 1D-1H, 1S-P loss). Both may rebid 1N. If we are comfortable with 1D-1H, 2H with 1354 or 1345 then it's not so bad for 1D-1S, 2H to be 4351 or 1354. I think the "problem" with 1D-1S as hearts is more that responder's rebid space is more confined than after 1D-1H natural. In effect, responder is preempting himself and weak hands cannot rebid past 2H while if 1D-1S shows spades, responder has weak rebids through 2S.

I think Adam makes a very strong case for why it's important for responder to show his longer major. He illustrated that very well with responder potentially giving support doubles to the shorter major in competition, but it also causes problems in uncontested auctions.

I think 1D-1H*, 2D-2H as 4S/5H is unplayable. You can't take opener from a 6-cd diamond suit to your 5-cd heart suit when responder is weak and opener has denied 3S and 4H. At best you have an 8-cd fit (which is great obviously) but you've a big problem when opener is 2-1 in the majors and even doubleton support may result in an inferior part score. Similarly 1D-1H*, 2C-2H as GI 4+S/5H is a very narrow target. You know, in both of these sequences you are quite invested in opener having described his hand and it's just very poor to be switching direction and having responder describe a misfit. You should use these bids as artificial GF relay type bids and have opener complete the description of his hand. I mean you have 1D-1H*, 2C-2N available for 4S/5H invites and opener when accepting game can check on a heart fit en passant (you speak French presumably so I thought I'd try this out on you. Is this correct usage?).

I think you'd help yourself a little if you explored Flannery responses. Let's see.

1D-1H*, 1S*-2D and now you know you'll wind up in an 8-cd major suit fit either way (holding 5S/4H) and opener could be 3343 or 3253 but after

1D-1H*, 2m responder knows that no 8-cd fit is available (holding 5S/4H) so he passes or corrects or invites or uses 2H as a GF artificial relay.

1D-2H as 4+S/5H weak gets rid of that hand promptly.

1D-2S as 4+S/5H GI obviously takes you passed your anchor suit and this is almost fatal, but at least you deal with the hand type and have values.

More of a problem are 4S/6H hands. Flannery responses don't help you here at all and natural bidding will be way ahead. So maybe you need

1D-2M to handle 4S/5+H hands and respond 1H with your 5/5s.

I still don't like it. 4S/6H hands are a problem for you because you've really no way to convey that you have 6 and not just 5. Maybe 1D-3H as 4S/6H invite?

So I know you don't like the Flannery idea in the first place. These are just patches and poor patches and I think I'm with Adam and MickyB that there's just too much complexity and more downside than upside here.

[benlessard]

vlate here so ill just reply to this..

Quote

I think 1D-1H*, 2D-2H as 4S/5H is unplayable. You can't take opener from a 6-cd diamond suit to your 5-cd heart suit when responder is weak and opener has denied 3S and 4H

Ok i think i mislead you. Its written 5-5 Weak but .....

I bid 1D-1H-2D-2H the same way i bid 2H (in std) in 1C-1S-2C-2H where 2D is art 3rdSF and 2H is NF. I play mostly imps so for me its NF but its to protect against missing a 4M game rather than to correct the partscore. Its just think that in my case since opener denied 3S/4H/4C* (most of them) its safer than usual to bid 2H NF with 5 because I believe opener will rarely have one heart. Ive bid a fair amount of hands and so far opener never had a stiff H in that auction but it need to be more tested.

Im sure we both agree that with 45?? and 7 pts its pointless to bid 2H, but with 10 pts it make more sense, its also for those 4612 and 8-9 count that may miss game vs a 1363 13-15 pts. Ill still bid 2H to correct when I have a D void but on normal weakish hand with 5H. In a previous post ive replied this to you..

Quote

After

1D-1H!
2D-??

Since opener quasi-denied 3S he is very likely to have at least 2H so that why bidding 2H NF and 3H GF is pretty safe. In standard 2H is forcing mostly because responder may have 4or5 hearts and you still need to check for a 5-3 S fit. But with my setup I see no real need to keep 2H forcing. Keeping 2H forcing is of course possible but I would try 2H as NF but constructive first, with a garbage hand I would just pass 2D for better or worse.

So i mostly meant constructive but its in the chapter weak 55?? or weak 46?? so its very misleading.

So in short we agree that there is no point in bidding 2H with many hand with 5H.


For the 1D-1H-2C-?? I never had the intention of making 2H nf. I probably did make a mistake or wasnt clear. I usually like 4th suit inv style that Pavlicek explained quite well.

2H = any & all the inv (with paradox or P/C responses)
2S = to play
rest is GF.

[straube]

If I understand correctly, you'll have difficulty with

Qxxx Axxxxx x xx opposite x KQx AQxxx Qxxx

1D-1H*, 2C-?

I hope you don't mind the criticism.

[benlessard]

yes , but stronger is worse since I may missed game. In standard I would normally jump to 2H 6H, 4-7.

This is because I like 1D-1H-2m-2H & 1D-1S-2D-2S to be 8-10. I know most hate WJS but I like them as long as they serve a constructive purpose somewhere.

Anyway I can use 1D-2H for 6H+4S if its turn out to be a major problem.

Also right now im trying to check if this inversion may work for standard 1D opening (bal hand possible) , but for me my 1D is always unbalanced so i will probably play something like my reg system.

quickly it would look like...
1D-1H(S)-??

1S = clubs could be 5C+4D (1444) or 3 some card s raise.
1NT = 6D any strenght denies 3S
2C = D+H extras may have 3S
2D = 5D+4H min denies 3S
2H = min raise or GF S raise
2S = 4 card raise that would accept an inv.

Its a cornestone of my system when 1D is unbalanced we never stop in 1NT and use it as a mulitplier of sequences.