[straube]

 kenrexford, on 2014-May-12, 19:08, said:

With two strong openings, as with New Frontiers, the ability to develop pattern is enormous, and you can still control who declares well.

I'm sure of it, but I'm looking at best continuations for a single 2C opening. I mean, I prefer strong club and feels this handles strong hands much better than would 2C and 2D combined, but a strong club opening isn't the question here either. A lot of people use strong 2C and I'm suspecting that the best continuations haven't been written yet and I also suspect that the 20-21 bal or GF is the wrong direction as well.

I'd be interested in your help on this question because I think you write well, but I think the balanced hands (and perhaps a few stray unbalanced hands) should go into 2H and some unbalanced hands should go into 2N. Do you see what I'm trying to accomplish and can you make suggestions for improvement? For one thing, what I wrote is not easy to remember.

[kenrexford]

 straube, on 2014-May-12, 20:18, said:

I'm sure of it, but I'm looking at best continuations for a single 2C opening. I mean, I prefer strong club and feels this handles strong hands much better than would 2C and 2D combined, but a strong club opening isn't the question here either. A lot of people use strong 2C and I'm suspecting that the best continuations haven't been written yet and I also suspect that the 20-21 bal or GF is the wrong direction as well.

I'd be interested in your help on this question because I think you write well, but I think the balanced hands (and perhaps a few stray unbalanced hands) should go into 2H and some unbalanced hands should go into 2N. Do you see what I'm trying to accomplish and can you make suggestions for improvement? For one thing, what I wrote is not easy to remember.

This is a problem that evades a good answer. The question is not how to unwind, as a solution always exists. That is a matter of fine tuning. The question is what you want to address with the relay. The balanced or canapé is reasonable. Kokish addresses solely a range on hcp and thus seems to cover too little, of a problem. I would rather divide balanced hands by pattern, such as Kokish if balanced with less than 4 spades, 2NT direct if 4 or 5 spades, because it simplifies Responder and allows for really cool alternative structures. There are many other options, including having 2S be another relay.

[gnasher]

I think the biggest problem with Kokish is auctions like

2♣-2♦
2♥-2♠
3♦-3♥

where opener doesn't know whether he's facing support or just preference, and he doesn't know much else about responder's hand.

Hence I think that after 2♣-2♦;2♥, you should play the three-level bids as promising 3+ hearts and similar to what you would have done opposite a balanced hand. For example:
2♠ = relay, < 3 hearts
2NT = something obscure
3♣ = Stayman, 3+ hearts.
3♦ = 5+ hearts
3♥ = 5+ spades, 3 hearts
3♠ = A raise of 2NT to 3NT, with 3 hearts

Opposite the three-level bids, opener bids at the four level if he has hearts, and makes the normal action if he's balanced.

[straube]

 gnasher, on 2014-May-13, 06:15, said:

Hence I think that after 2♣-2♦;2♥, you should play the three-level bids as promising 3+ hearts and similar to what you would have done opposite a balanced hand. For example:
2♠ = relay, < 3 hearts
2NT = something obscure
3♣ = Stayman, 3+ hearts.
3♦ = 5+ hearts
3♥ = 5+ spades, 3 hearts
3♠ = A raise of 2NT to 3NT, with 3 hearts

Opposite the three-level bids, opener bids at the four level if he has hearts, and makes the normal action if he's balanced.

I think that's clever.

[kenrexford]

 straube, on 2014-May-13, 07:28, said:

I think that's clever.

I love the part about 2NT as something obscure! Minors makes sense, though. 4-4 or better with three hearts?Or maybe simply a relay, one or both?

[Phil]

 gnasher, on 2014-May-13, 06:15, said:

I think the biggest problem with Kokish is auctions like

2♣-2♦
2♥-2♠
3♦-3♥

where opener doesn't know whether he's facing support or just preference, and he doesn't know much else about responder's hand.

Hence I think that after 2♣-2♦;2♥, you should play the three-level bids as promising 3+ hearts and similar to what you would have done opposite a balanced hand. For example:
2♠ = relay, < 3 hearts
2NT = something obscure
3♣ = Stayman, 3+ hearts.
3♦ = 5+ hearts
3♥ = 5+ spades, 3 hearts
3♠ = A raise of 2NT to 3NT, with 3 hearts

Opposite the three-level bids, opener bids at the four level if he has hearts, and makes the normal action if he's balanced.

Andy did you get this from here? Pretty sure I wrote about it but to me it's such a common sense solution that I wouldn't be surprised if someone else thought of it too.

[straube]

This might be the solution to Kokish, but Kokish gives a lot of priority for differentiating opener's NT ranges and greatly at the expense of fit-finding. If 2C-2D is negative or waiting (possibly negative) then you pretty much need something like Kokish otherwise opener is stuck with say 25 balanced for finding a superior major suit fit along the way to 3N. If instead one uses 2D as a positive response (which I like) then you get a pretty poor return on Kokish. You're already in a GF and are trying to show extra values (for slam purposes) before you've found a fit.

In concert with 2D positive, I'm thinking...

2H-negative, denies 4 hearts
.....2S-opener has 4+ spades, forcing
2S-negative, 4+ hearts but not 4 spades
2N-negative, 4/4 or 5/4 in the majors
3C-5/5 majors
3D-4/6 majors
3H-6/4 majors

This finds most of the major suit fits opposite negative hands and lets you stop low. For example 2C-2S, 2N-3D could be to play (4H/5D). OTOH, opener's new suits would be forcing.

After 2C-2D I'd rather the priority be on fit-finding. A 2H rebid would be balanced or perhaps 4M/5m while a 2N rebid would promise 5 hearts.

If 2C-2D, 2H is usually balanced, it gives responder room to describe hands that can't be adequately shown with Stayman and transfers. With the latter, just rebid 2S and opener's 2N is now natural.

I could use help with the math.

[straube]

2C-2D
.....2H-bal of 4M/5m
..........2S-bal or semibalanced
...............2N-bal
...............3C-4H
....................3D-no fit
.........................3H-5C
.........................3S-5D
...............3D-4S/5C
...............3H-4S/5D
..........etc-to be determined
.....2S-5S
.....2N-5H
..........3C-no fit
...............3D-diamonds
...............3H-clubs
...............3S-spades
..........3D-5S
..........3H-fit
.....3C-6C or 5C/4D
...........3D-4+ diamonds
................3M-3M/6C
...........3M-5M
.....3D-6 diamonds
.....3H-6 hearts
.....3S-1354
.....3N-3154

Any takers? And what hands would responder want to show that can't be shown by transfer and stayman auctions? All minor-suit based? 4M/5M?

[Siegmund]

I have been experimenting with a structure very much like Post #8:

2C = bal 20-21 or big
...2D = waiting, or 5+ hearts any strength
......2H = bal 20-21
.........2S = waiting without hearts
.........2N = H/S (like jacoby then 2S)
.........3C = 5H4+C
.........3D = 5H4+D
.........3H = 6+H slammish
.........3S = 5332 GF (to not wrongside 3NT)
......2S = spades (responder assumed to be waiting, unless he rebids hearts)
......2N = 22+ bal, systems on
......3C = clubs
......3D = diamonds
......3H+ = hearts (+whatever jumped into, etc)
...2H = 5+ spades any strength
......2S = bal 20-21, followups as over 2C-2D-2H-2N and higher
...2S = 0-3, no 5CM
......2NT to play
......3any natural forcing
...2NT = 6+ clubs (rare - and maybe it shouldnt be used at all - but I dont know what else to use it for)
...3C = 6+ diamonds

It is a real pain if you have the big hand with hearts. But it helps greatly with the 20-21 hands, and they are much more frequent than the monsters.

[straube]

 Siegmund, on 2014-May-13, 21:46, said:

I have been experimenting with a structure very much like Post #8:

2C = bal 20-21 or big
...2D = waiting, or 5+ hearts any strength
......2H = bal 20-21
.........2S = waiting without hearts
.........2N = H/S (like jacoby then 2S)
.........3C = 5H4+C
.........3D = 5H4+D
.........3H = 6+H slammish
.........3S = 5332 GF (to not wrongside 3NT)
......2S = spades (responder assumed to be waiting, unless he rebids hearts)
......2N = 22+ bal, systems on
......3C = clubs
......3D = diamonds
......3H+ = hearts (+whatever jumped into, etc)
...2H = 5+ spades any strength
......2S = bal 20-21, followups as over 2C-2D-2H-2N and higher
...2S = 0-3, no 5CM
......2NT to play
......3any natural forcing
...2NT = 6+ clubs (rare - and maybe it shouldnt be used at all - but I dont know what else to use it for)
...3C = 6+ diamonds

It is a real pain if you have the big hand with hearts. But it helps greatly with the 20-21 hands, and they are much more frequent than the monsters.

Yeah. This totally caters to the 20-21 balanced. If it goes 2C-2S and you have a GF balanced hand it doesn't look like you can find a 4-4 major suit fit because a 2N rebid is 20-22? I guess and you just blast with the 23+ hand. I was curious what your 2N opening was and assumed it was a mid-range like 22-23 but I see you rebid 2N with 22+ bal after 2C-2D.

2C-2D, 3C-3H and I've no idea if responder has any points and same for 2C-2H, 3H-3S.

For the 20-21 you gain playing 2M whenever responder has a bust hand with a major. These are infrequent though. You gain when responder has a 5M/4other which is especially helpful when you have 5H/4S. You get to show your major and make a slam try in it at the 3-level and probably self-splinter, too which is unavailable (at the 4-level anyway) when you open 2N 20-21.

I think it hurts your strong auctions too much, but you do gain a lot from it on the more common hands.

[straube]

2C-2D
.....2H-bal of 4M/5m
..........2S-bal or majors
...............2N-bal
...............3C-4H
....................3D-no fit
.........................3H-5C
.........................3S-5D
...............3D-4S/5C
...............3H-4S/5D
..........2N-6C
..........3C-6D
..........3D-4D/5C
...............3H-asks
....................3S-1345
....................3N-3145
..........3H-5D/5C
..........3S-1354
..........3N-3154
.....2S-5S
.....2N-5H
..........3C-no fit
...............3D-diamonds
...............3H-clubs
...............3S-spades
..........3D-5S
..........3H-fit
.....3C-6C or 5C/4D
...........3D-4+ diamonds
................3M-3M/6C
...........3M-5M
.....3D-6 diamonds
.....3H-6 hearts
.....3S-1354
.....3N-3154

[kenrexford]

You are getting heavy into Responder describing instead of Opener. This is not a problem necessarily, but if you are going that way, you can go all in, in a sense. I figured out a reasonable structure that is even more Responder centered a few years ago, and it had great potential, even if bizarre from the expectations of normal people. The best way to explain the general idea was that I took my ideas in my New Frontiers book and then realized that I could collapse the two structures for each opening into the one 2C opening if I ignored the need to be opener centered. If a strong 2D opening has a structure for after the 2H relay, then all rebidding by Opener after a 2C opening for the usual 2D opening hands can be fit into the re bids above 2H. The entire 2C opening hands would then be scrunched into a Kokish relay, as long as a Responder centered Kokish break is developed.

You are close to the approach. The key to what I worked on was that any rebid above 2H promises 4 or more spades, including 2nt, with Kokish handling any hand with fewer than 4 spades.

Keep working on ideas. You are on the right track, imo.

[straube]

Thanks a lot. I appreciate the encouragement.

Curious what your structure actually was. Seems like you used a strong 2D opening as well.

I'm not sure how responder-centric this actually is. After 2C-2D, opener has the first shot of describing his pattern, but obviously he can only describe so many things so the 2H rebid is a stall. Then it's responder's turn and then perhaps again opener's. Strong club systems have done this and I'm thinking particularly of SCREAM but others to differing degrees.

I'm not at all sure what I have responder describing is best or laid out best. I thought to let responder show what can't be shown easily after opener has rebid 2N. If you have ideas for something better after 2C-2D, 2H let me know.

[Siegmund]

Re my #29 post:

Quote

I was curious what your 2N opening was and assumed it was a mid-range like 22-23 but I see you rebid 2N with 22+ bal after 2C-2D.

Actually I tried it with the idea of freeing up 2NT for something else -- but if you don't need 2NT for anything else, then you could certainly make the 2NT opening 22-23, and gain back an extra step so that opener can show his hand more precisely.

Quote

2C-2D, 3C-3H and I've no idea if responder has any points and same for 2C-2H, 3H-3S.

That is true, and I haven't as yet invested much brainpower into solving that problem.

Quote

If it goes 2C-2S and you have a GF balanced hand it doesn't look like you can find a 4-4 major suit fit because a 2N rebid is 20-22?

That would be a problem worth solving -- but I am not any worse than the people bidding 2C-2D-3N or 2C-2H(bust)-3N now. And it's a lower priority problem than either the 20-21 hands or the previous item.

[newroad]

Hi Blackshoe,

Sorry for the delayed response. In answer to your question

 blackshoe, on 2014-May-12, 16:06, said:

What does Kleinman do for a rebid with the minor suit hands?

I can't quite remember the specifics of the TBW article, but I'm fairly sure what I now play is very similar. In essence

2♦ 2♥
2♠: 5+♦/4+♠
2NT: 22-24 BAL
3♣: 5+♦/4+♣
3♦: 6+♦, usually one-suited
3♥: 5+♦/4+♥
3♠: 0=4=5=4 (hard to show everything below 3NT otherwise and still get a view from responder if needed if starting with a 3♣ rebid)
3NT: 25-27 BAL
4♣+: Auto-cue setting diamonds as trumps

I should perhaps confirm that 3♠ acts as an explicit ART DBL NEG where sensible (as 2♦ 2♠ is NAT, semi-POS or POS).

and

2♣ 2♦
2♥: pseudo-Kokish (5+♥ or 4♥441) - you can guess or derive the continuations
2♠: 5+♠
2NT: 5+♣/4+?, then after a 3♣ relay, show the second suit
3♣: 6+♣, usually one-suited
3♦: 4=1=4=4
3♥/♠/4♣: sets trumps
3NT: 4=4=0=5 (hard to show otherwise after starting with a 2NT rebid)

I should also add that 3♥ acts as an explicit ART DBL NEG where sensible (as 2♣ 2♥ is NAT, semi-POS or POS).

I don't think Kleinman used the pseudo-Kokish style for the 4441's.

Also (and I corresponded with him on this) he didn't/doesn't use 2♦ 2♠ analogously to his 2♣ 2♥ proposal (I do, as I think the principle is sound and worth extrapolating).

Regards, Newroad

[kenrexford]

 straube, on 2014-May-14, 16:49, said:

Thanks a lot. I appreciate the encouragement.

Curious what your structure actually was. Seems like you used a strong 2D opening as well.

I'm not sure how responder-centric this actually is. After 2C-2D, opener has the first shot of describing his pattern, but obviously he can only describe so many things so the 2H rebid is a stall. Then it's responder's turn and then perhaps again opener's. Strong club systems have done this and I'm thinking particularly of SCREAM but others to differing degrees.

I'm not at all sure what I have responder describing is best or laid out best. I thought to let responder show what can't be shown easily after opener has rebid 2N. If you have ideas for something better after 2C-2D, 2H let me know.

The two way structure is in my New Frontiers book. The version that crunched that basic idea into one bid is way too complicated for a post, because the number of unexpected breaks even immediately and follow up bidding is crazy. I don't even have a clue where I kept all the notes, because I abandoned the idea.

[straube]

Anyone have feedback on...

2H-negative, denies 4 hearts
.....open may pass
.....2S-opener has 4+ spades, forcing, other new suits are forcing
2S-negative, 4+ hearts but not 4 spades
.....3H not forcing but other suits are forcing
2N-negative, 4/4 or 5/4 in the majors
.....opener places the contract for this and higher bids, 3m is not forcing
3C-5/5 majors
3D-4/6 majors
3H-6/4 majors

If someone wants to test some hands and report how it works, it would be great to have a second opinion. I think it works pretty well most of the time and finds major suit and other fits for the negative hands. It ought to because I'm using quite a lot of bids for it and the question is whether its worth it. I ran 100 hands with north set at 22+ hcps and south had 18 double negative hands. So for those folks who like the double negative 2H call and rarely find themselves using the 2S+ responses for wanting to stay out of opener's way, I think they ought to use something like this because it helps 2C-2H, 2N P and 2C-2H, 3N when you're losing a 4-4 major suit fit. Consider it a freebie. OTOH, for those who like to use 2S+ to promise say a 6-cd suit with 2/3 honors or whatever, obviously there is a trade off here.