[straube]

I've been looking at this more closely the past few days and I think it's better than my structure that I posted on the NT relay thread. There's a couple of things that I like about my structure including the low information 2N puppet stayman ask, but compared to mine, awm's structure...

1) handles the GI with a long minor
2) handles patterns with 10 minor suit cards better, particularly 6/4 vs 4/6
3) handles 1363 and 3136 etc better.

It gives up showing fragments such as 4513, 5431, etc, and this seems relatively unimportant.

So I have a question or two...

1) What do you do with GI 4S/5+H? With just a 4/5 I Stayman and rebid 2N, possibly losing the 5-3 heart fit. I imagine with 4S/6H you just bid 2S size ask and then show the hearts and forget the spades.

2) Do you have a way of bidding 1N-transfer, acceptance-3N as a choice of games (5332) vs a demand correction to the major with fit but not interested in a minor suit game?

3) Your notes say 1N-2N, 3C-3S promises 3S, 0-1H, and 5+C, but I think it must promise 6 clubs else 1N-3H with 3145, right? But 1N-2N, 3C-3H promising 3H, 0-1S, and 5+C sounds correct because 1N-3S needs to promise four hearts and not possibly 1345.

4) I know you use 1N-2C, 2D-2H as a puppet to 2S with either a weak hand of 5S/4H or various others. What are the others? I'm still thinking of using 2H as GF relay asking.

Something I've found useful after my own similar splinters (1N-3H for example a heart splinter) is foregoing use of 4H but using 4C and 4D instead. 4C (by either partner) says "I know of a fit and I like my hand in context. Please bid 4D and I'll name the fit" while 4D says "I think 3N is wrong but I don't know of a fit. Can you help?"

Anyway, for those unfamiliar, it's the best structure I've seen and I'm already switching.

[awm]

1nt-2c-2d-2h forces 2s and includes:

5+s/4+h weak (pass next)
4s/5h inv (2nt next)
4/5+ or 5+/4 GF not 2/2 (bid long minor next)
4/6 or 6/4 inv (optional) 3 long M next.

Transfer followed by 3nt is choice of games for us now.

Our 1nt-3h is 4h and 0-1s not vice versa. This allows a "no wastage" 3s below game. Note that if we bid the splinter directly, 1nt-3s would not allow a "no wastage" cue below 4h.

Thus 1n-2n-3c-3M is exactly three major and short other major, can be (13)45.

The one hand type we can't show cleanly is 21(73); probably would show three in the 2M and hope for the best.

[straube]

Here's the link if anyone is trying to follow this.

http://www.cs.ucla.e...IMprecision.pdf

So 1N-3H promises 4 hearts and 4+ of each minor presumably. 1N-3S promises 4S and 4+ of each minor as well? I haven't considered this approach, but I did think about what Ron Klinger was doing and it occurred to me that using the cue bid at the 3-level to show purity was not as good as using the 3-level to find fits.

If 1N-3H can be 3145 or 3154 or 4144 or 4045 or even 3046 then

.....3S-opener showing 4 spades
..........3N-content
..........4C-I know of a fit. Please relay for it
..........4D-I have extras. Do we have a fit? Not spades.
..........4H-vacant
..........4S-I have 4 spades. Nothing extra.
.....3N-stopper
..........4C-I know of a fit. Etc
..........4D-I have extras. Etc
.....4C-I have a fit. Please relay
..........4D-relay
...............4S-5 spades
.....4D-No stopper. Do we have a fit? Not spades
.....4S-5 spades. Not pure.

If you want to be able to stop in 4m, that would be a reason not to use this.

So again, what's your 1N-3S? I've assumed that 1N-3D is club shortness as you have a delayed way to show diamond shortness. That's what I've done anyway but using 2S size ask as a relay and then 3D to be at the same point for one shortage vs the other.

Have you considered 1N-2H, 2S-3H as GI and 1N-2D, 2H-3H as GF in case you get interrupted by competition? It's safer then to reverse into spades with the GF hand.

So you do have a way of showing 4513 vs 4531 after all? That's what you meant by 4/5+ or 5+/4 GF not 2/2 (bid long minor next)?

I think the most important things you can do with your 1N-2C, 2D-2H puppet are the weak 5S/4H hands and the GI 4S/5H hands. 2N could really be wrong if opener has major suit values.

[awm]

straube, on 2014-May-07, 18:20, said:

So 1N-3H promises 4 hearts and 4+ of each minor presumably. 1N-3S promises 4S and 4+ of each minor as well? I haven't considered this approach, but I did think about what Ron Klinger was doing and it occurred to me that using the cue bid at the 3-level to show purity was not as good as using the 3-level to find fits.

So again, what's your 1N-3S? I've assumed that 1N-3D is club shortness as you have a delayed way to show diamond shortness. That's what I've done anyway but using 2S size ask as a relay and then 3D to be at the same point for one shortage vs the other.

Have you considered 1N-2H, 2S-3H as GI and 1N-2D, 2H-3H as GF in case you get interrupted by competition? It's safer then to reverse into spades with the GF hand.

So you do have a way of showing 4513 vs 4531 after all? That's what you meant by 4/5+ or 5+/4 GF not 2/2 (bid long minor next)?

I think the most important things you can do with your 1N-2C, 2D-2H puppet are the weak 5S/4H hands and the GI 4S/5H hands. 2N could really be wrong if opener has major suit values.

1NT responses are:
... 4M = to play
... 4m = transfer to major (south african)
... 3N = to play
... 3M = exactly four in the bid major, 0-1 in the other major, 3+ in each minor
... 3D = 4+ diamonds, 3-4 in each major, 0-1 clubs
... 3C = transfer to diamonds, sign off or GF
... 2N = transfer to clubs, sign off or GF
... 2S = range ask; flat invite or minor suit invite are the most common uses
... 2H = transfer to spades, sign off or GF; may be 4S and 6+ minor with GF
... 2D = transfer to hearts; may be 4H and 6+ minor with GF
... 2C = stayman(*)

(*) Includes 5+S invite hands, three-suiters with short diamonds, and hands with long clubs and short diamonds. Does NOT include 4M and 6+ minor GF hands (transfer to major) or 4M-5D-(3/1) hands (bid 3D or 3M depending shortness) or three-suiters short ina non-diamond suit (bid 3D or 3M) or invites without a 4M (bid 2S).

Yes, we can now distinguish shortness on 5/4 majors hands. This can lead to avoiding some bad 3NTs and even finding some good 6m slams.

We have not found that opponents competing over our invitational sequences is that common of a problem, and like the "right-siding" advantage of transferring to hearts first with the invite.

[straube]

ok. I see why you don't need a splinter in the other major after 1N-2C, 2M. You still have use for the diamond splinter. What patterns could splinter in clubs?

1N-2C, 2D-2H, 2S-

.....3C-4513 or 5413
.....3D-4531 or 5431

Then opener would cooperate to find a 5-3 major suit fit before exploring 3N or 5m. I suppose one could use a relay here.

Do you allow 4m to be played after a splinter? Like 1N-3H, 4C is forcing or not forcing?

I think I'm close to getting it. Thanks for explaining.

[awm]

The splinters are really game forcing. We do not (generally) play calls that are "forcing to game or 4m."

Club splinter after 1nt-2c-2M implies both majors (i.e. 4531, 5431) since hands with short clubs and no 5M start 3D.

Over 1nt-2c-2d-2h-2s-3m, we just play 3M by opener showing three-card suit and the usual "no wastage" anti-cue.

[straube]

Thanks again. I'm out of questions for the present. Btw, akhare really likes your NT structure, too.