[mojila]

hi,
IS cue bid raise forcing...? Cue bid raise shows how many points...?


e.g. 1♣-1♥-p-2♣... (cue bid raise) points
1♥-1♠-p-2♠... points ....
1♦-1♥-p -2♦..

1♣-1♥-p-2♣;
P- ? can 1♥ bidder pass ...?

Appreciate answer please

This post has been edited by barmar: 2014-May-11, 22:18
Reason for edit: Use suit symbols

[Vampyr]

A cue-bid raise is normally played as forcing for just one round, and shows an invitational raise or better.

If you play that a change of suit after an overcall is not forcing, then the cue-bid will also contain some strong non-raise hands.

[Bbradley62]

mojila, on 2014-May-02, 18:53, said:

1!C-1!H-p-2!C;
P- ? can 1!H bidder pass ...?

Absolutely not. Since you called the cue bid a "raise", your partner is telling you that he has hearts with you and that hearts is your suit. You cannot pass him in clubs any more than you could pass a splinter bid.

[Free]

Ofcourse you can pass, but any sane person wouldn't unless he psyched...

[whereagles]

Cue-bids have a very wide range of definitions.

However, in some cases there exist trends. For instance, if the first bid by responder or advancer is a cue-bid, it usually shows support for partner's suit and a good hand. This is of course forcing.

[kenberg]

With some partners I do the following:

(1♣)-1♥-(Pass)-3♣ shows a good limit raise in hearts with four trump. The idea is that with four card support there is no question about strain and we can probably play at the three level. The auction (1♣)-1♥-(Pass)-2♣ remains a bit ambiguous about whether hearts are trump. It certainly is forcing and if at my next turn I do something other than support hearts it is very strong. Partner, after my 2♣ bid, can work on the assumption that I have three hearts. Usually I do, and if I do not then I have lots of compensating values.

This seems to work well enough. I imagine that there are other approaches.

[barmar]

kenberg, on 2014-May-03, 06:44, said:

With some partners I do the following:

(1♣)-1♥-(Pass)-3♣ shows a good limit raise in hearts with four trump.

I think it's more common to use the jump cue to show a mixed raise, i.e. constructive with 4-card support.

[fromageGB]

I'm with kenberg on the jump cue (eg 3m) after partner's major overcall as being game invitational or better with 4 card support, but I play the simple cue as a transfer. With the constructive (if that means weaker than game invitational) 4 card raise I just bid 3M.

One of the benefits of transfers in this position is that it also gives you 2 ways to raise to 2M. But I am sure this is not a majority view.

To answer the OP's question of "points", assuming you have a flattish hand you can agree the strength depends to some extent on what you would usually expect for a minimum overcall. If you agree that you would typically expect a 10 count to overcall on a 5332 shape, then your range for the game invitational cue could be 11-13, and a direct 3M therefore weaker. As this still leaves a wide range of values with which you would want to bid 3M, the 4 card support bids I play with a regular partner are direct 3M up to 8hcp, invitational cue (in our case at the 3-level) 11+(unlimited), and with 9/10 we transfer to 2M then raise to 3M.

I do agree with the OP's concern over expected strength, because unless you have an understanding here, it is difficult for partner to know where to go. Having 3 ways to get to 3M on normal hands makes judgement easier. If you often overcall on a 7 count, it may make sense to increase the strength for the raises.

[Zelandakh]

fromageGB, on 2014-May-06, 12:04, said:

With the constructive (if that means weaker than game invitational) 4 card raise I just bid 3M.
<snip>
the 4 card support bids I play with a regular partner are with 9/10 we transfer to 2M then raise to 3M.

These are the hands Barry was referring to as a mixed raise (constructive with 4 card support). The range is typically 8-10 or 7-9 but it makes sense to tighten this when you are finishing at 3M rather than 3cue since no game try is available.

[fromageGB]

When you have hearts over a 1♦ open then there is no room for a trial over a cue of 3♦, so that bid does have to be tightly defined. However, if you do play that all non-jump advances from opener's suit through the one beneath partner's are transfers, then you do actually have 4 ways to get to 3M, so they can be as tight as you like :

• transfer to 2M then bid 3cue
  
• transfer to 2M then raise to 3M
  
• jump cue
  
• bid 3M directly

I suppose logically the weaker hands need to bid more pre-emptively so you should allocate the strength ranges in this sequence, strongest first.

For those playing transfers, does a simple transfer then cue have any particular meaning for you?

[Zelandakh]

Transfers a good idea but not for everyone. Even some very good players prefer to use natural methods where they can. I think a typical allocation of your 4 sequences would be:

transfer then 3M = extras, say 13-14 (ie equivalent of cue then raise)
transfer then cue = max (similar to cue then cue)
3M = weak raise (no change fromn Standard)
jump cue = mixed raise (no change fromn Standard)

The effect is that transfers have not provided extra space for raises here. The additional sequences you have gained are really a transfer to a new suit followed by showing support. Against that you have lost the ability for partner to make a bid between the cue raise and the trump suit, since the cue raise is now always the suit immediately below. Transfers are actually worse off on these hands than Standard, even though the overall effect is positive.

[mojila]

Thank you very much for quick answers.
Yes She passed me in 2♣s and said "you can not bid cue bid you have 3 cards♥s
support" Gracefully we lost game in ♥s and accepted expected downs.

[Bbradley62]

mojila, on 2014-May-10, 18:18, said:

Thank you very much for quick answers.
Yes She passed me in 2♣s and said "you can not bid cue bid you have 3 cards♥s
support" Gracefully we lost game in ♥s and accepted expected downs.

Wait, wait, wait!

In your original post, you said that 2♣ was a raise in hearts. Apparently, your partner does not agree with this meaning. This is a partnership understanding issue, if you are playing with your regular partner. If you are playing with a random partner, and have agreed SAYC, or 2/1, or something else that you think doesn't require discussing, then you are right (because this is the way the vast majority of non-beginners play). But if you are playing with a regular partner, you and she need to agree as to whether 2♣ is natural or is a heart raise.

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2014-May-10, 18:55