[awm]

---

Now what? If it matters:

1. 1♣ is the only strong bid in our system and shows 16+; 1NT would have been 14-16 balanced.
2. 3nt or four of a suit from partner would've been natural and game forcing (we don't play anything special here).
3. Double is game forcing takeout, although obviously partner is under pressure and may be a bit off-shape or under-strength (normally not both though).

Suggestions as to methods here are welcome too (perhaps there is some advantage to transfers or switch?), but I am more interested in the bidding judgement problem. Basically:

1. Is this hand worth trying for slam even though that would bypass 4♥?
2. How much concern is there about strain given that partner could certainly have only three hearts in this sort of pressure auction?
3. Given that partner has made a takeout double and we have only one spade, what is going on? Should we be more concerned than usual about partner being off-shape?

I will also mention that partner took an off-beat view here and his actual hand may not be very enlightening. However I thought it was an interesting problem from my side of the table.

[glen]

1. Is this hand worth trying for slam even though that would bypass 4♥?

Picture a typical
♠ xx
♥ Kxxx
♦ Kxx
♣ Qxxx

you don't want to try for slam opposite minimums

2. How much concern is there about strain given that partner could certainly have only three hearts in this sort of pressure auction?

There is concern, but no room to know for sure what is best strain

3. Given that partner has made a takeout double and we have only one spade, what is going on? Should we be more concerned than usual about partner being off-shape?

Yes, we should be more concerned that usual, but there is little room to investigate

There is a tempo problem if we take a lot of time to be concerned about what is best

[straube]

I'd just bid 4H. Partner could have 4 or 5 hearts, too. I wouldn't invite slam.

I like to play thrump doubles here because it handles responder's off shape hands...such as what he actually held. Opposite a thrump double, I wouldn't bid 3N with a stiff ace because I can't hold up etc. I ought to be able to bid 4C without suggesting much of a preference for clubs. Partner will expect 5, but sometimes he will have 4-cd support and other times he'll be able to bid 4D (and you rebid 4H along the way to supporting diamonds) or 4H. If I want to make sure I avoid a 4-3 club fit, I could rebid 4S but now I'm giving up on playing 4H.

Edit: actually, playing thrump doubles 1C (3S) dbl P 4S probably ought to be a big hand with hearts or hearts and a minor

[foobar]

Results notwithstanding , 4♥ (in tempo) seems like the best option.

1) IMO, the the somewhat uninspiring shape, relatively poor trump quality, and ♠A are a dampener for slam prospects, the 4 Aces notwithstanding.

2/3): Landing in a 4-3♥ is a concern, but RHO may very well have 3♠, but insufficient shape to raise to 4♠

[helene_t]

Probably you should be playing something like switch here where 4♣ (both from responder, and in response to a double) shows hearts. Bidding a natural 4♥ both with a 20-count with four hearts and with a 16-count with 5+ hearts can't be right. But I am sure there are other posters who have thought more about this than I have

[dake50]

[quote name='glen' timestamp='1398536224' post='790815']
1. Is this hand worth trying for slam even though that would bypass 4♥?

Picture a typical
♠ xx
♥ Kxxx
♦ Kxx
♣ Qxxx

you don't want to try for slam opposite minimums -- glen

Wow! Forcing to 4-level on K+K+Q balanced -- What????
If that hand acts immediately, there can be no hand which reopens as South - all possible 8's have shown.

[glen]

dake50, on 2014-April-27, 06:27, said:

Wow! Forcing to 4-level on K+K+Q balanced -- What????
If that hand acts immediately, there can be no hand which reopens as South - all possible 8's have shown.

In your "approach", what is opener's bid with:

♠ xxx
♥ AQJx
♦ AQxx
♣ KJ

After 1♣-3♠-P-P-?

[straube]

I would double with xx Kxxx Kxx Qxxx.

Helene's Switch is interesting, but what are the follow-ups? For example 4H shows clubs so how does opener now show hearts?

If playing thrump doubles...

dbl-thrump
4C-5H/5C
4D-5H/5D
4H-6H

Any support for thrump doubles? They work well for such hands as...

xx Ax Axxxx Jxxx dbl
xx Axxxx x Kxxxx 4C
x xx xxxx AQJxxx dbl

[glen]

straube, on 2014-April-27, 09:05, said:

Helene's Switch is interesting, but what are the follow-ups?

First idea would be
1♣-3♠-X-P-4♣(showing ♥s)-P-4♦ last train
1♣-3♠-X-P-4♥(showing ♣s)-P-4♠ last train

However for 4♣ better would be:
1♣-3♠-X-P-4♣(showing ♥s)-P-4♦ showing only 3♥s

straube, on 2014-April-27, 09:05, said:

For example 4H shows clubs so how does opener now show hearts?

1♣-3♠-X-P-4♥ would deny 4+♥s

straube, on 2014-April-27, 09:05, said:

Any support for thrump doubles?

Here. I prefer double is not takeout, but passable value showing.

[Free]

After intervention of a strong ♣ you have to act with hands which are GF based on HCP which fit a certain distribution. K+K+Q with 2♠-4♥-4-3 (takeout shape), even though it's balanced, you have a clear Dbl imo. It's one of the weaknesses of a strong ♣ so you can't expect to get to the right contract every time.

As opener, takeout vs takeout shape usually isn't great because of possible mirror hands. Therefore a simple 4♥ should be enough.

glen, on 2014-April-27, 06:31, said:

In your "approach", what is opener's bid with:

♠ xxx
♥ AQJx
♦ AQxx
♣ KJx

After 1♣-3♠-P-P-?

Call the TD obviously...

[glen]

Free, on 2014-April-27, 13:30, said:

Call the TD obviously...

fixed, thanks

[whereagles]

3NT describes shape and strength, but for once having good stops seems important.

4♥ is just fine, but what if pard expects 5 cards?

Take your guess..

[straube]

With thrump doubles opener could use 4C, 4D, and 4H to sort out possible heart fits and higher bids to sort out minor suit fits.

4C-3 or 4 hearts
.....4D-responder showing 4 hearts
4D-5 hearts
4H-6 hearts

After failing to find a heart fit, either partner could suggest minors where...

4S-diamonds
4N-clubs
5C-6 clubs

So Adam's auction could have gone 1C (3S) dbl P 4C P 4S P 5D

[dake50]

In your "approach", what is opener's bid with:
S: xxx
H: AQJx
D: AQxx
C: KJ
After 1C-3S-P-P-? -- glen

*** Exactly. This 17 can assume the typical 7
(which should have been discounted for just this reason)
when an auction gets preempted and reopen double.

[straube]

dake50, on 2014-April-28, 06:26, said:

In your "approach", what is opener's bid with:
S: xxx
H: AQJx
D: AQxx
C: KJ
After 1C-3S-P-P-? -- glen

*** Exactly. This 17 can assume the typical 7
(which should have been discounted for just this reason)
when an auction gets preempted and reopen double.

I don't understand what you're saying. Glen was posing this hand as a reason why doubling with xx Kxxx Kxx Qxxx made sense because clearly opener has to pass this out and a heart game would be missed. I think you had been suggesting responder pass with such an 8-ct. So now what are you saying?

[mycroft]

Pluses to slamtry: I have all the aces and it's hard as an aceless partner to go past game (and be off A,A,A on other hands!)
minuses to slamtry: I have nothing but aces, and partner has GF values+. Much more likely to be not + (and maybe the + is the wasted ♠Qx or Jxx - would partner think ♠Qxx enough to bid 3NT with 8 high?) Yep, I have no losers. Yep, I have 10 winners, too.

"Game before slam", for me. I'm a chicken, I know.