[Fluffy]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-14, 09:35, said:

OK, so you bid 5♣, the 4♠ bidder bids 5♦, partner doubles, RHO bids 5♠ I presume you pass and partner is in the hot seat with:

xx, 109x, KQxx, K10xx

Any suggestions ? (also do you really remove a double of 4♠ with this, may not play great opposite partner's big balanced)

Big balanced hands without spade doubleton would pass. Partner would have a big problem with that hand and I wouldn't blame him for missguessing. Might even win some 4 IMPs for +100/-50

[Cyberyeti]

 ArtK78, on 2014-April-14, 09:40, said:

If your point is that partner may have some problems later in the auction, all I can say is that is certainly possible. But that is not the problem that was presented to us.

It's as much a story as a problem, seriously sub-optimal results were obtained at both tables which I'll reveal later.

[aguahombre]

Pard would have bid 6C over 5D rather than Doubling, to put the ball back in their court.

[steve2005]

what's the Vul? I think both NV from diagram. is it MPs or IMPs?

[ArtK78]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-14, 09:57, said:

It's as much a story as a problem, seriously sub-optimal results were obtained at both tables which I'll reveal later.

It is usually right to bid one more at IMPs. But both you and the opps have already done that. Now is the time to start doubling.

[Cyberyeti]

 steve2005, on 2014-April-14, 10:23, said:

what's the Vul? I think both NV from diagram. is it MPs or IMPs?

The byline with the thread title says love all IMPs so both NV teams

[gszes]

5c

I have reasonable distribution and the real upside is the aces and positional
advantage over rho (the one that would x our contract). That means bidding
carries far less risk than normal. While I have no strong reason to believe
we can make 5c or 5h there is a fair chance the opps will not have strong reason
to believe we cannot. This fact makes a push to 5s that much more likely and an
x of 5s is a heck of a lot less dangerous than at 4s where we actually have
marginal reason to believe we can set them.

Part 2

x
P really need a monster fit with us in order to make 6 and it seems like a really
bad idea to encourage p to bid on with a pass over 5s. (yes I play this as a form of
forcing pass once p threw in that 5dx). We survived our 5c excursion so let us now
try to take the money and run.

[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-14, 09:35, said:

OK, so you bid 5♣, the 4♠ bidder bids 5♦, partner doubles, RHO bids 5♠ I presume you pass and partner is in the hot seat with:

xx, 109x, KQxx, K10xx

Any suggestions ?

Yes, with a void in spades you (South) should pass the decision to partner over 5♠. You have told your story.
I think 6♣ by partner (North) is a good bid.
The same can not be said for DBL. Do you really expect them to go down two?
Partner can reasonably expect one defensive trick in diamonds, but we need three.
RHO opponent probably has at least 11 cards in spades and diamonds, but I think 7♠-5♦ not unlikely now.
So even if you hold 2 aces as you do, that will be worth just one trick.
Double is premature.

6♣ is not unlikely to make from North (xx, 109x, KQxx, K10xx) perspective, since any missing secondary honor in our suits are very likely onside.
South would have doubled with two cards in spades after North doubled 5♦, so may well hold a void in spades.
Anyway 6♣ can not be hurt much and 5♠ will often make.
It is not a case where the five level belongs to the opponents.
I am prepared to give them 100 when we could have got 100, but I do not want to be on the losing side if either 5♠ or 6♣ makes.
It is really a case of "when in doubt bid one more".
North should be in doubt and take out insurance.

Rainer Herrmann

[slothy]

6-5 stay alive.

6-5-2 dont ask partner what to do.

Halleluyah.

[mfa1010]

 Cyberyeti, on 2014-April-14, 09:35, said:

OK, so you bid 5♣, the 4♠ bidder bids 5♦, partner doubles, RHO bids 5♠ I presume you pass and partner is in the hot seat with:

xx, 109x, KQxx, K10xx

Any suggestions ?

If he thinks the likely shapes through, he should be able to find the 6♣ bid. Ofc it is easier to say when we know opener's hand, but still.
From partner's perspective defense against spades will get 1 rounded trick at most and need 2 diamond tricks to beat 5, which will often not happen. Dummy could easily have a doubleton (diamonds 5422) or the diamond ace.

Meanwhile there may be a shot to win 6♣.

[Cyberyeti]

 mfa1010, on 2014-April-15, 03:50, said:

If he thinks the likely shapes through, he should be able to find the 6♣ bid. Ofc it is easier to say when we know opener's hand, but still.
From partner's perspective defense against spades will get 1 rounded trick at most and need 2 diamond tricks to beat 5, which will often not happen. Dummy could easily have a doubleton (diamonds 5422) or the diamond ace.

Meanwhile there may be a shot to win 6♣.

Prophetic words:

You already know what dummy looks like, play 6♣ on the lead of K♠ overtaken by the A.

Spoiler

When you play a club to the K, Q drops single from the 4♠ bidder

[mfa1010]

If west has a club, I go deep in hearts playing him for 12 cards in ♠+♦. Only 6-5 or 7-4 is unlikely for a 5-over-5 flyer like that. If this was right I make 6♣ even if west's trump singleton is a low one. If west doesn't have a club, I would also go deep in hearts, but now I won't make, because I have been forced and don't have entries to take all the finesses.

[Cyberyeti]

 mfa1010, on 2014-April-15, 06:32, said:

If west has a club, I go deep in hearts playing him for 12 cards in ♠+♦. Only 6-5 or 7-4 is unlikely for a 5-over-5 flyer like that. If this was right I make 6♣ even if west's trump singleton is a low one. If west doesn't have a club, I would also go deep in hearts, but now I won't make, because I have been forced and don't have entries to take all the finesses.

The other 2 hands are:

---

So when the Q♣ appears single, you have plenty of entries to take 2 heart finesses without ruffing the 4th heart to take the trump finesse as you need to if W's stiff is a low one.

At our table partner passed out 4♠, -450

At the other table, opps doubled 5♠, +650 and a fortunate +5 IMPs

I can't help wondering whether E should bid 5♠ over 4♠ which is going to give NS a huge problem.

[whereagles]

Well, just pass 5♠... you did your stretch, after all.

[Trinidad]

I would only bid 5♣ on days that end with 'g'. (But, then again, I am Dutch..)

Rik

[rmnka447]

The initial question of whether to bid on with the 6-5 hand is easy, opener should bid 5 ♣.

Responder's quandary about what to do after 5 ♠ - P - P seems difficult, but a little thought about what's been bid and the implications thereof should help.

Opener's 5 ♣ bid has to show some sort of big rounded suited player. Opener isn't likely to roll out a 5 ♣ bid with more than a stiff ♠. In that case, the opponents are almost certainly looking at least a 10 card ♠ fit.

Likewise, preemptor is also showing a player in the pointed suits by competing to 5 ♦. That bid seems to suggest at least 11 or 12 pointed suit cards. Preemptor is very unlikely to roll out a 4 card long ♦ second suit holding much longer ♠s. Preemptor almost surely has the ♦ A as it's unlikely that he'd be rolling out a Jxxxx suit at the 5 level

With advancer taking a preference back to 5 ♠, defending 5 ♠ doubled can hardly feel like a "sure" positive. There's a real danger that a doubleton in advancer's hand may limit the defender's to a single ♦ trick by ruffing out the second ♦ loser. That means in order to beat 5 ♠, you have to score 2 tricks in the rounded suits. Also, if advancer holds 3 ♦s so you can defeat 5 ♠, then it looks like opener has to have no more than stiff/stiff in the pointed suits.

Responder does have fitting cards for both opener's suits. So it looks like their side have the pointed suits and responder's side has the rounded suits. But who can make what? Nothing's certain, but the previous discussion makes it look like doubling 5 ♠ isn't a good choice. The decision comes down to passing out 5 ♠ or bidding on.

Bidding on risks possibly pushing them to a makeable slam, but it also makes it much more likely you can defeat the slam by scoring a ♦ trick and a rounded suit trick. If partner holds the right cards, 6 may make your way.

So on balance, I think bidding 6 ♣ is best. If 6 ♣ is -1 and 5 ♠ is -1, that's life.

[AyunuS]

I would bid 5♣, but it's not 100% clear, and here's why not. You could have an agreement with your partner about what a double means here. Since the agreement could be anything, there exist some that'd be better than just bidding 5♣ so it can't be 100% clear.

[rhm]

 AyunuS, on 2014-April-15, 15:47, said:

I would bid 5♣, but it's not 100% clear, and here's why not. You could have an agreement with your partner about what a double means here. Since the agreement could be anything, there exist some that'd be better than just bidding 5♣ so it can't be 100% clear.

If the agreement is that DBL shows a void in spades, minimum values, six hearts with five clubs you might DBL.
However, if someone opens a thread and poses a question I assume he will publish his/her agreements, which are relevant to the problem posed, if his / her agreements are outside what is considered standard.
If no special agreements are posted I will assume the problem occurs playing for the first time with an expert partner without having had a special discussion applying to this particular bidding scenario.
That is no special agreements apply.
Is that 100% clear?

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

Our agreement was simply that double was for takeout, and much more likely to be 3 suited.

What do people feel the difference is between 5♣ and 4N here ?

[the hog]

This is not a 5C bid as th hand is not good enough. It is a 4NT bid, showing a second suit.