[el mister]

Playing 2/1, simple lebensohl agreement that a direct cue means stayman, nae stopper (should it over a major?) - what is the bid here? [from the club last night - spots are approx]

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[Original deal edited for minor suit J holdings]

[ahydra]

ugh.

Punt 3NT and hope partner has Jxx hearts and you can run nine tricks? Failing that, 4C.

ahydra

[Trinidad]

4♠

It is not forbidden to bid game in a 4-3 fit if you know that 3NT won't make.

Rik

[kenberg]

If I were to bid spades, and I certainly think it might be right, I would go with only 3. But I think I guess 3NT. Even 9xx in partner's hand coud be enough if the Jx is on my right. Partner is a passed hand. I suppose he has a 10 or 11 count. Give him the KQxx in spades, that would make spades a reasonable trump suit. It also means that he cannot have both the ace of diamonds and the king (or the QJ) of clubs. Ten tricks in spades might be tough. But make it ♣K, ♦A, ♠K and we come home if we can handle hearts. I have put wonderful cards in partner's hand, I don't really expect them to be there, but at least I can make it if they are there.

[el mister]

Thks for the replies. I did actually bid 3S, figuring a Moysian is not the worst thing in the world - raised to 4S by partner. Partner showed up with:

♠Kxxx
♥-
♦JTxx
♣KQxxx

Which looked to have some play, but I couldn't handle the 2-4 spade break and it went one off. Club game seems miles better, so I was ruminating if either pard's 3H or my 3S were clear mistakes.

[P_Marlowe]

A common Lebensohl agreement is, slow showes / fast denies.

This would translate to a direct cue is stayman without a stopper,
a delayed cue is stayman with a stopper.

You can also play it the other way around, although I am not
sure how the acronym would sound in this case.

With the given hand, and haing the agreement, that slow showes,
you have no spade fit, and no stopper, hence bid 4C.

After having read the comments - 3S / 4S is certainly not the worst
bid, but the 4-3 fit is not running anway, over 4C, partner can still
suggest a 4-3 fit, or if he bids 4D, you can suggest it.

And 4C would be the correct bid, if your spades would be worse.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Bbradley62]

What would 4♣ have shown over 3♠? It shouldn't be a slam try by a passed hand, so would it be giving partner a choice of black-suit games, just in case he held the actual South hand?

[aguahombre]

Two things:

1) Finally someone posted a thread using the word "lebensohl" correctly.

2) I would have chosen a forcing 3C as responder. It shouldn't deny 4 Spades or demand a club strain.

[ggwhiz]

aguahombre, on 2014-March-25, 10:19, said:

2) I would have chosen a forcing 3C as responder. It shouldn't deny 4 Spades or demand a club strain.

A thoughtful bid especially at imps but I have no problem with the (slightly) swing action that lands you in 4♠ at MP's except that it's a fail.

You might even uncover a 1nt opener with 5 diamonds in it let alone 4 spades.

[MrAce]

el mister, on 2014-March-25, 10:01, said:

Thks for the replies. I did actually bid 3S, figuring a Moysian is not the worst thing in the world - raised to 4S by partner. Partner showed up with:

♠Kxxx
♥-
♦JTxx
♣KQxxx

Which looked to have some play, but I couldn't handle the 2-4 spade break and it went one off. Club game seems miles better, so I was ruminating if either pard's 3H or my 3S were clear mistakes.

What do you play double over 2♥ ? If it is not for penalties, starting double may result better, although i maybe resulting because starting double with a void can also be dangerous incase opener converts.

About bidding 3 spades; i do not think it shows a hand willing to play at 3 level after gf 3♥. In fact some plays it (if not majority) a hand which is better than 4♠ would show. It is debatable though if this is a good agreement when pd is coming from pass.


How about 4m after 3♠ ? . Coming from pass you can not possibly have anything more than you hold so it is unlikely that pd will drag us too high, but probably we will end in better game. 6♦ seems makeable if no ♣ ruff or no ♣ lead. Very tuff to spot the ♦ fit when all styles of bidding will find ♣ fit earlier, and ignore clubs and find dia fit and figure the void and find slam,,,Na..even in forum it looks like too double dummy bidding.

Idk the whole hand but depending on what they led and how they defended, i suspect 4♠ could be made with a careful play.

[fromageGB]

With your agreements, 4♣ has to say no stops, 4 cards, and denies 4 spades. It does not stop partner from converting to diamonds. If you had agreed to play this denial, it justifies what would otherwise be an overbid from responder.

[gszes]

There is a lot more to this hand than anyone has mentioned so far:)

Responder is a passed hand so slam considerations are minimal. The fact that
responder is not forced to bid they must have some cards to bid at all (even a
2s bid should have some semblance of a spade suit to try and compete). One of the
huge advantages of playing leb here is the ability to show the difference between
game forcing and invitational/competitive sequences. With a competitive or invitational
hand one goes through 2n (except for 2s of course). This means your hand can safely make
a forcing 3c call. There is no reason this has to deny 4 spades since we can always
still find our spade fit if p cannot safely bid 3n. The important thing to remember
is that we are bidding clubs for a reason instead of NT. we are warning p that we were
close to an opening bid and that we have some distribution (probably just no heart stop)
that makes a 3n bid by us look poor.

After your 3c bid p should bid 3h to show their partial heart stop and you can
now bid 3s to show your 4 card suit and p knows a whole ton more about the hand than
if you just jump to 3h stayman right away. After this beginning 5c is super easy to find.

Since p is a passed hand and slam considerations are so low, given the problem of what
to bid over 3h I would opt for

3s

in the hopes p would read this as an attempt to sign off with what is now a subminimum
1n hand. I would only do this because of the doubleton heart making it a bit more likely
we can play the moysian and heart pumps can be handled with the 3 card trump suit. I would
freely bid 4c/d instead of 3s if I had a 5 card suit or if I had 3 hearts (then I would
bid my lowest 4 card minor) because I would sense we are in trouble.

[whereagles]

At table I would probably bid 4♠.. but come to think about it, 4♣ seems better.

Pard can now:

- bid 4♠ with good spades (say KQJx) offering a choice of games (what else can it be?), to which I would pass.
- raise 4♣ to game/slam.
- bid 4♦, natural 4+ cards, no club fit, to which I would raise to game (or pass if LHO/RHO kept an eye at the bidding LOL).