[paulg]

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

[whereagles]

3♦ has little use as natural. You can use it anyway you want.

It may be nice to use it to tell good from bad preempts, as a 3♣ is often off-shape (2♣ not available as weak).

[glen]

paulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major ...

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

3♣-3♦ asks:
-- 3♥: not 3♥s, now 3♠ asks:
---- 3NT: not 3♠s, rest with 3♠s
-- 3♠: 3♥s

[kenrexford]

glen, on 2014-April-04, 10:11, said:

This is in Steve Robinson's Washington Standard book, and you will see it in many of my systems. I had thought about restructuring to get responder to often play the hand, but the frequency didn't seem worth the bother:

3♣-3♦ asks:
-- 3♥: not 3♥s, now 3♠ asks:
---- 3NT: not 3♠s, rest with 3♠s
-- 3♠: 3♥s

This seems kind of strange as a structure.

If Responder has just spades, he gets great information about Opener's hand if Opener does not have three hearts also. If Opener is 3-3-0-7 or 3-3-1-6, however, the spade fit might be lost.

If Responder has just hearts, he will know that there is a fit when Opener bids 3♠, and the contract is likelier to be right-sided, but there is not much in the way of extra pattern known.

If Responder has both majors 5-5, the right game will be found, and all is well.

Contrast this with the following:

3♥ = 3 spades, or neither (3♠ asks)

3♠ = 3 hearts, not three spades

3NT = both 3-card majors

In this structure, all contracts are right-sided. No major fits can be missed, which is probably more important.

The Robinson approach, again, seems to have a gaping hole when Opener has 3316 and Responder has five spades.

[steve2005]

How bout 3♦ as asking for a stopper with 3N being a ♦ stopper and 4♣ as no stopper.

3N seems a likely goal and may be useful if your thinking of a ♣ slam.

[PhilKing]

The first structure is wrong as has been pointed out before, because it wrong-side 3NT in 2 instances (go through them and you will see what I mean). Ken's wrong-sides when responder has five spades and opener has neither. You can do better as follows:

3♦ asks:

3♥ = no 3M
3♠ = 3♥
3NT = 3♠

This only wrong-sides NT when responder has 5♥ and a desire to play 3NT opposite no fit. And when opener has no 3-card major, responder can bid 3NT or bid 3♠ as an artificial probe suggesting 3NT, but only if opener is suitable.

[PhilKing]

Er, we can get (almost) the lot. After 3♦:

3♥ = one 3 card major
3♠ = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side
3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT
4♣ = both 3M

After 3♥:

3♠ = nat
3NT = 5♥

But the problem here is one of information leakage.

[gnasher]

PhilKing, on 2014-April-04, 14:00, said:

3♠ = no 3M, unsuitable for NT from weak side
3NT = no 3M, happy to play 3NT

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on 2014-April-05, 00:30, said:

Does the hand that would bid 3NT actually exist?

Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

Qx
Qx
Qxx
Q109xxx

?

[PhilKing]

FrancesHinden, on 2014-April-05, 02:35, said:

Depends what you think a 3C opening bid looks like

Qx
Qx
Qxx
Q109xxx

?

Perfect hand for the system.

[32519]

paulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt...

Try this -

RESPONDER NEEDS A VERY GOOD REASON TO REMOVE THE PRE-EMP, AS OPENER’S HAND MAY BE COMPLETELY USELESS OUTSIDE OF THE SUIT BID, WHEREAS RESPONDER’S HAND CAN PROVIDE TRICKS IN THE OTHER 3 SUITS TO TAKE CARE OF OPENER’S LOSERS
RESPONSES AFTER 3♣ PRE-EMPT:

Pass (The hand belongs to the opponents)
3♦: 3♦ over 3♣ is own 7-card minor suit, no support for opener’s suit, not much anywhere else
3♥: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3♥
1. 3♠: 1 step (cheapest bid), singleton or void in ♥, no ♥ stopper
a) Responder places the final contract
2. 3NT: I have a ♥ stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx
a) Responder places the final contract (often 4♥ on a good 5-2 trump fit)
3. 4♣: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in ♥
a) Responder places the final contract
4. 4♥: Game in asking suit = 3-card support

3♠: Natural, at least a 5-card suit, may or may not have support for the suit opened, asking for a stopper in the suit bid, forcing for 1 round.

CONTINUATION AFTER A REPLY OF 3♠
1. 3NT: I have a ♠ stopper e.g. Ax, Kx, Qxx
a) Responder places the final contract (often 4♠ on a good 5-2 trump fit)
2. 4♣: 1 step (cheapest bid excluding 3NT), singleton or void in ♠, no ♠ stopper
a. Responder places the final contract
3. 4♦: 2 steps (excluding 3NT), doubleton in ♠
4. 4♠: Game in asking suit = 3-card support

[MrAce]

32519, on 2014-April-06, 06:26, said:

Try this -

...........
........
......

No, thanks !

[PhilG007]

paulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

When I was a student,I was taught that when partner opened a pre empt,he was saying
loud and clear that he was only interested in HIS suit. The yardstick for raising depended
on how many quick tricks were held by the responder, 4 QT if non vul,3 if vul.
I was also taught that responder should never go into NT unless he(responder) held a minimum
of 3 cards in the pre empt suit.

[32519]

paulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card ♣ suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:
0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP
0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X♥
0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X♥
0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X♥

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.

[Antrax]

So what you're saying is that given a 3♣ preempt, there's a 1 in 6 chance he has a three-card heart fragment? So roughly 1 in 3 to have a 3M fragment?

[straube]

32519, on 2014-April-06, 23:09, said:

I ran some numbers through BBOs deal generator. To find partner with a 7-card ♣ suit and a 3-card major is tiny. These are the numbers:
0.47% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP
0.44% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 1X♥
0.32% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 2X♥
0.15% = Probability of being dealt a 7-card ♣ suit, 6-11 HCP, AND 3X♥

To have 3-cards in the specific major responder has, drops off the probability even further. Referring back to my previous post, ask for 3-cards in the specific major wanted, instead of having opener tell. It helps squat having 3-cards in the major responder does not have.

Many 6-cd club suits get preempted...especially because very few people have a weak two in clubs available.

If you want to look at odds, why not look at how often partner will have a 3-cd holding given the fact that he has already opened 3C? For example, the odds you list are very low, but 0.15% divided by 0.47% suggests that almost half the time opener will have 3 hearts along with 7 clubs. Seems high to me but I assume that's right. So if you have 5 hearts as responder, it's worth considering that opener could have 3-cd support for you.

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.

[32519]

straube, on 2014-April-07, 00:30, said:

Many are finding it useful to concentrate on finding 5-3 major fits as well as 6-2 major fits while avoiding 5-2 major fits. If you have a 5-2 fit you will likely more often want to be in 3N and try to run either suit...more often the clubs. A lot of the ideas then use 3D to find 3-cd majors while using 3H and 3S responses to promise 6-cd suits.

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.

[straube]

32519, on 2014-April-07, 01:22, said:

Check out my first post in this thread. You can still find your 6-2 major fits. I firmly believe that you are better off with responder "asking" about support for a specific major, than with opener "telling" what he has. It helps you squat with opener "telling" you about 3-card support in the major responder does not have.

In your structure, responder can't ask for support of a specific major without risking opener bypassing 3N when he doesn't have 3-cd support. For example...

3C-3H, 4C for doubleton without a stopper

and

3C-3S, 4C for singleton without a stopper

and

3C-3S, 4D for doubleton without a stopper

That's really fatal. So it the idea of responder only bidding 3N with a stopper in the suit that responder holds.

You also need to clean up...

3C-3H, ? because two rebids qualify for Qxx....the rebid of 3N and the raise to 4H. Probably you mean 4H.

I don't expect you'll change your mind, so agree to disagree. Good luck.

[Siegmund]

Not yet mentioned in the thread is Andersen and Zenkel's Preempts from A to Z

They recommended 3D asking for a 3-card major. I don't have the book handy but I think their proposed rebids were
3H = 3 spades
3S = 3 hearts
3NT = both majors
4C = no major.

I don't doubt that it can be squeezed into one fewer step if you are prepared to occasionally wrongside 3NT. But simple is good, for a moderately uncommon situation.

I found it actually came up with some frequency, with the one regular partner who played it, and gained me something I could not get by any other means. When partner opened 3D and I had a nice 5-card major I actually missed it.

[32519]

paulg, on 2014-April-04, 09:05, said:

After partner opens with a 3♣ pre-empt, I thought that I'd find quite a lot about using 3♦ to ask for a 3-card major or other methods. But it is not the easiest to search for and I've found little. Do many people use this? And I see Meckwell (and Fred when he plays with Brad) seem to use 3♦ as a transfer to 3♥, albeit with no other information.

Anyone particularly like using an artificial 3♦?

I find this thread of yours intriguing. To remove a 3-level pre-empt you obviously have a very good reason to do so. Help me to get a better understanding of what responder's hand looks like to remove the pre-empt -
1. What is the minimum number of HCP opener can expect to find responder with?
2. What sort of distribution are we talking about here with responder? In looking for a 3-card major, are you implying that responder is 5/5 in the majors?
3. Does the 3♦ asking bid absolutely deny any sort of fit with opener?