[eagles123]

w/w MP

1N (12-14) p

987
-
QJ83
AK8653


2N is a transfer to the minors (i.e. asking p to bid 3C for possible pass/correct) 3C direct is invitational. 2c followed by 3c clubs would be 5 clubs/4 of a major and GF. No agreements apart from that. How to bid this?

Spoiler

and as a bonus can anyone get to the making 6D contract lol

1NT opener is

AKT
A9532
K93
84

Thanks,

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

Nobody wants to be in 6♦ it's a terrible contract. Seems to require diamonds 3-3, clubs 3-2 and some.

First, use your redundant bids, 1N-2N-3♣-3M/3N as GF both minors. Whether you show your longer minor or short major is up to you. It's not totally clear where you want to play this, 3N is not good on a heart lead 5♣ seems to need a fair bit too, 5♦ can go horribly wrong on a heart lead and non 3-3 diamonds as you lose control.

Secondly K&R gives the 1N opener as 15.5, I would upgrade and open 1♥ (5 card suit, all aces and kings 14 count).

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-31, 17:20, said:

Nobody wants to be in 6♦ it's a terrible contract. Seems to require diamonds 3-3, clubs 3-2 and some.

First, use your redundant bids, 1N-2N-3♣-3M/3N as GF both minors. Whether you show your longer minor or short major is up to you. It's not totally clear where you want to play this, 3N is not good on a heart lead 5♣ seems to need a fair bit too, 5♦ can go horribly wrong on a heart lead and non 3-3 diamonds as you lose control.

Secondly K&R gives the 1N opener as 15.5, I would upgrade and open 1♥ (5 card suit, all aces and kings 14 count).

I wasn't serious about 6D lol, maybe a lot of coughing would get us there

and thanks for the tip

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2014-March-31, 17:25, said:

and thanks for the tip

What do you use 1N-2♠ for ? We actually use 1N-2♠ for the "one minor signoff or GF both minors" meaning that you have some flexibility in your responses to this.

1N-2♠-2N = none of the others
1N-2♠-3♣ = 4-5♦
1N-2♠-3♦ = 5♣

This means you can find a 4-4 or 4-5 diamond fit or 5-4 club fit instantly on the hands with both minors

[eagles123]

1N - 2♠ is asking for strength, i.e. with a minimum bid 2N with a max bid the first 4 card suit. Not a big fan but it's what's teached.

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2014-March-31, 17:55, said:

1N - 2♠ is asking for strength, i.e. with a minimum bid 2N with a max bid the first 4 card suit. Not a big fan but it's what's teached.

Scrap that when you can find somebody to play something else with. You will end up in 3N having put your opps off one of the potentially helpful leads they might have made.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-31, 18:29, said:

Scrap that when you can find somebody to play something else with. You will end up in 3N having put your opps off one of the potentially helpful leads they might have made.

Yes, it's a terrible convention, just as bad as non-promisory Stayman but with the added disadvantage that it wastes a bid that could be used for something better.

If you must play this, I would recomend using it only with slamish hands. It will allow you to find a good 6m contract on some of those deals where the mere mortals bid 1N-4N. With the 11-counts, just pass or blast.

[kenberg]

I have only rarely played weak notrumps but the problems of the hand seem to be pretty universal. Now about 5C. Partner has a 14 count, the most he can have. There are no wasted values whatsoever. The contract still depends on clubs being 3-2. Sure they probably are, but I think this will be a hard game to get to with confidence, even with appropriate coughing.

Part of the problem is deciding who is going to show and who is going to tell. And after show and tell is done, who decides. If you had a way for responder to announce "I have a minor two-suiter with decent values and more clubs than diamonds" maybe opener is in a reasonable position to decide that his AK and A will provide the necessary pitches, his ♦ K should be golden, and since he has as much as he possibly could have, he should bid the game.

In some approaches (not yours, and I am not necessarily advocating it), it could start 1NT-2♠-2NT, where 2♠ asks for a four card minor and 2NT denies one. Perhaps after this, 3♣ shows something like this. Perhaps.

Anyway, I don't see responder ever having a good way of seeing that 5♣ is a good contract. Change the ♠K to a Q and the contract is much worse. Change the ♥A to a K and it's hopeless.Opener may be able to make the proper decision if he learns enough about partner's hand, but I am at a loss to see how this will happen.

[Cyberyeti]

kenberg, on 2014-April-01, 07:06, said:

I have only rarely played weak notrumps but the problems of the hand seem to be pretty universal. Now about 5C. Partner has a 14 count, the most he can have. There are no wasted values whatsoever. The contract still depends on clubs being 3-2. Sure they probably are, but I think this will be a hard game to get to with confidence, even with appropriate coughing.

Part of the problem is deciding who is going to show and who is going to tell. And after show and tell is done, who decides. If you had a way for responder to announce "I have a minor two-suiter with decent values and more clubs than diamonds" maybe opener is in a reasonable position to decide that his AK and A will provide the necessary pitches, his ♦ K should be golden, and since he has as much as he possibly could have, he should bid the game.

In some approaches (not yours, and I am not necessarily advocating it), it could start 1NT-2♠-2NT, where 2♠ asks for a four card minor and 2NT denies one. Perhaps after this, 3♣ shows something like this. Perhaps.

Anyway, I don't see responder ever having a good way of seeing that 5♣ is a good contract. Change the ♠K to a Q and the contract is much worse. Change the ♥A to a K and it's hopeless.Opener may be able to make the proper decision if he learns enough about partner's hand, but I am at a loss to see how this will happen.

You decide whether this is a game force, and if you do by my methods you bid 1N-2♠-2N(denying 4♦)-3♥(5-6♣4♦GF)-

You can also wimp out and bid 3♣ to play over 2N if you don't like it so much.

Partner might have had Ax, xxxx, AKx, xxxx plus a random J and 7 is solid if clubs 2-1 so this hand while nice is not perfect

[whereagles]

I would just sign-off in 3♣. Don't have tools to find a better contract.

[Cyberyeti]

whereagles, on 2014-April-01, 08:52, said:

I would just sign-off in 3♣. Don't have tools to find a better contract.

I think on this hand I'd be in a bad but not totally no play in the real world 3N, but if we did have a fit and a minor suit game or slam on I'd find it.

[kenberg]

While drinking coffee it came to me that even seeing both hands I am not so sure that I want to be in 5♣. I have five club tricks if clubs are 3-2 and I have three tricks exactly in the majors. So I need three from diamonds. Maybe I get them, maybe I don't. If I had the ♦T this would be a better shot, but partner has already given me an AKA in the majors and the ♦K. I don't think I should be asking for more.

I notice that as compensation for not having the ♦T I have two ♣8s, but I doubt this does much for me.

[jallerton]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-31, 17:20, said:

First, use your redundant bids, 1N-2N-3♣-3M/3N as GF both minors. Whether you show your longer minor or short major is up to you.

I agree with this. In this basic structure, it's more common to use 3M over 3♣ as showing a fragment in the bid suit, both minors and hence shortage in the other minor. 3NT over 3♣ is 5/5 in the minors, NF.

[jallerton]

eagles123, on 2014-March-31, 17:55, said:

1N - 2♠ is asking for strength, i.e. with a minimum bid 2N with a max bid the first 4 card suit. Not a big fan but it's what's teached.

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-31, 18:29, said:

Scrap that when you can find somebody to play something else with. You will end up in 3N having put your opps off one of the potentially helpful leads they might have made.

helene_t, on 2014-April-01, 02:14, said:

Yes, it's a terrible convention, just as bad as non-promisory Stayman but with the added disadvantage that it wastes a bid that could be used for something better.

If you must play this, I would recomend using it only with slamish hands. It will allow you to find a good 6m contract on some of those deals where the mere mortals bid 1N-4N. With the 11-counts, just pass or blast.

There's nothing wrong with playing 1NT-2♠ as 2-way: a raise to 2NT or Baron. The raise to 2NT is quite a frequent hand type, after all. The thing I'd suggest changing is Opener's rebid. Just play 1NT-2♠-3♣ as any maximum hand. Now if Responder has the raise to 2NT, he just bids 3NT and no information has been given away about Opener's shape. On the rarer occasions when Responder has slam interest, there's still (nearly) as much room for Responder to investigate.

[ggwhiz]

What is taught gets you started. What you improve on gets you to the winners circle.

Congrats on your attitude and effort.

[gszes]

The first thing to consider is that your hand is not
game forcing opposite a 12 14 nt. Once your think that
through the next step is to try to make 3n (rather than
5 of a minor) so IMO using your system of bids I would
try a 3c invite. If p has a club fit and some aces then
3n looks like it might be the best spot. If p is max with
a club fit but cannot bid 3n they should be able to
show stoppers and if p cannot show a heart stopper* then
you should be happy with finding an elusive 5c contract.

This hand p has no club fit and they should pass
your 3c bid. Despite the fact your side might make 6d
3c is a more than reasonable contract when you look at
the combined hands.

* if p bids 3s denying a heart and dia stop be very happy with 5c
if p bids 3d (they have a major suit problem) I would go so far
as to bid 3s (since if p has no spade stop we cant make 5 of a minor
anyway) to show spades stopped and a heart problem. If p can now
bid 3n go for it if p cannot bid 3n then be happy with 5c. If p bids
3h showing no dia stop you are probably best in 3n since you know you
have at least 2 dia losers and possibly a ruff in a club contract.