[MrAce]

I know I will hear the frequency of hands are low which is suitable for 4 NT rkcb. I wonder how frequent is to use 4 NT as take out for minors (combined with 4 NT and then 5♠ or cue and whatever it is out there )

I think a well oiled pdship could use it for take out to the optimum level. As far as i know Meckwell plays this rkcb, in fact they play a lot of 4 NT bids rkcb in competition and w/o competition. I know more than just 1 top pairs who plays it rkcb. . I also watch BBO vugraphs, top events, and yet to counter a 4 NT bid as sophisticated and detailed as in BBF. All i see mostly is rkcb unless they have ability to ask rkcb by using other tools such as kick back - minorwood or w/e.

Perhaps we should not only focus on the frequency only. How about the efficiency of a bid ? I mean if you have a bid which is less frequent but what it asks and what it learns is crystal clear information, while we have an alternative use of the same bid which is more frequent (?) but not magically lands you on correct contract, if there is any at 5 level. Basically one of them (kinda )guarantees a result but less frequent, while other one does not but more frequent.

No need to mention the fact that, choosing 4 NT as rkcb you can still show/imply other suits via DBL, but by choosing other one you totally disable yourself from learning keycards. I think using double as take out and totally disabling myself from making direct penalty doubles is better than disabling myself from asking rkcb. Over heavy preempts when we are about to bid at 5 level, slam is in picture most of the time.

Now this is the 3rd time i am mentioning same thing, when you adobt a system where your 4 NT or 5 level bids are sophisticated and complex, you will need time to figure to remember the agreement, time to decide whether you should dbl them and if not which bid is suitable in a timely manner, or all these bids such as 4 NT or 5x or DBL, if made with a hesitation, will open a wide door for complaints from opponents. Because they will not pop up instantly in your memory like a stayman or jacoby transfer. All these positions we have after a heavy preempt or even after a mod preempt are kinda unique positions/auctions. A little detail in the auction may need to be analysed differently in each auction and may require a different approach. You will need time to figure this out and it will almost always come with the hesitation factor. (or maybe my memory sucks and i am getting old )

So i am still having hard time to decide which is better tbh. (i meant which is better at the table, obviously 4 NT for other purposes than rkcb is better in forum bridge)

[MrAce]

deleted double post

[Trump Echo]

5♥

Leave it to my partner.

[MrAce]

Trump Echo, on 2014-March-25, 16:05, said:

5♥

Leave it to my partner.

If you are leaving this to pd to decide, i feel bad, very bad for your pd. (I assume you meant to invite him via 5♥ because you said you will leave it to him)

I have seen a lot of under bidding in BBF, but this is a new dimension of under bidding, really. I mean the poor guy will have to decide correctly AKxxx xx KJx xxx is good for slam, when some people would not even open this hand. I would be scared to invite pd to any slam in the future if he accepts this one.

Otoh it is not really hard to construct hands where 6♣ is better or at least avoids a guess in spades, but i would not worry about these hands as much as worrying about hands i may miss grandslam.

[jolexa]

I would bid 4NT (RKCB) based off partners opener and see what "keycards" he has. That will determine where we end up.

[agonm]

eagles123, on 2014-March-24, 14:30, said:

---

system = 4 card majors, weak NT


what's the bid

Spoiler

I blasted 6S which worked out ok but surely a better way to bid the hand exists

will post full hand later

Thanks,

Eagles

[agonm]

maybe too simple but my bid wld be 5!h telling P I'd be happy to play 5!s but dont have the hand where RKC wld work. Hope P will conclude it depends on !s values and bid accordonly

[agonm]

5 heart

[agonm]

mb too easy but think this wld show P i have a hand willing to play 5 spades and dont have a hand where RKC wld work Hope P finds out it depends on Spades holding and bid accordonly

[MrAce]

agonm, on 2014-March-25, 21:48, said:

mb too easy but think this wld show P i have a hand willing to play 5 spades and dont have a hand where RKC wld work Hope P finds out it depends on Spades holding and bid accordonly

From your response i am confused what you meant by RKC. Did you mean RKCB ? If you did why do you think it would not work ? Why do you want your pd to find out your problem is about spade holdings when RKCB is almost perfectly designed for that ?

Everyone in this forum would use RKCB if they believed that is what 4 NT would be. Some people are using a bid other than 4 NT because they believe or prefer to play 4 NT for other purposes. Not because they believe rkcb will not work.

[SelfGovern]

I thought this thread was going to be about some new techniques in preemptive bidding. A title of "Go Away, Pre-Empts" would have clued me in to the real
content!

Grand Slam Force is perfect... except that it traditionally asks partner to bid seven with two of the top three trump honors. Nothing like being in 7S missing the ace. Perhaps you're in a partnership that has ways to differentiate between 2/3 and 3/3 -- if so, you may be golden (until opp gets wind and bid 6H over 5NT...).

[Cyberyeti]

SelfGovern, on 2014-March-26, 13:27, said:

I thought this thread was going to be about some new techniques in preemptive bidding. A title of "Go Away, Pre-Empts" would have clued me in to the real
content!

Grand Slam Force is perfect... except that it traditionally asks partner to bid seven with two of the top three trump honors. Nothing like being in 7S missing the ace. Perhaps you're in a partnership that has ways to differentiate between 2/3 and 3/3 -- if so, you may be golden (until opp gets wind and bid 6H over 5NT...).

Doesn't 5♠ show a hand that is trump deficient for GSF, typically Jxxx ish in this type of auction plus the nuts outside.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-26, 13:33, said:

Doesn't 5♠ show a hand that is trump deficient for GSF, typically Jxxx ish in this type of auction plus the nuts outside.

It does, if two people think it does and they are playing together. Maybe someone thinks It just shows two heart losers and the nuts outside. Anyway, I will worry about it when 4NT isn't RKC any more, and I have to show something rather than ask.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2014-March-26, 15:21, said:

It does, if two people think it does and they are playing together. Maybe someone thinks It just shows two heart losers and the nuts outside. Anyway, I will worry about it when 4NT isn't RKC any more, and I have to show something rather than ask.

Yeah, agreed, what 4N/5♥/5♠ mean is very much a matter for partnership agreement (and whether 5m is a cue or a suit)

[eagles123]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-26, 13:33, said:

Doesn't 5♠ show a hand that is trump deficient for GSF, typically Jxxx ish in this type of auction plus the nuts outside.

think 5♠ for us would be asking p to bid slam with something in Hearts

[ggwhiz]

4nt is RKC for me but if it wasn't I would bid 6♥. I'll bluff the post mortem by recalling this exact auction in Culbertson vs Lenz.

[steve2005]

JLOGIC, on 2014-March-24, 21:22, said:

That's very pessimistic, he opened and they bid 4H, they probably have some heart values

have you seen the state of current prempts 8 cards to the ten possible lol

[fromageGB]

With distributions round the table like this I am happy to act on the assumption that opener has more than 4 spades. If 4NT has not been agreed as something else, then I would think it would be ace asking.

Our agreements are clear - it is ace asking. X is penalty, and we have no 2-suited takeout for the 5 level (not that this hand wants one).