[eagles123]

---

system = 4 card majors, weak NT


what's the bid

Spoiler

I blasted 6S which worked out ok but surely a better way to bid the hand exists

will post full hand later

Thanks,

Eagles

[Bbradley62]

My bid is the same with or without that interference

[steve2005]

hopefully your playing some sort of keycard so you can find your spot, double would be neg for minors so 4N=KC, otherwise its take a guess with 6♠

[eagles123]

would 4N really be keycard here? Would've thought it's "pick a minor" (xx x AKJxx AQxxx)

[hrothgar]

All you need to know is how many spade honors partner has.
Surely, there must be some bid that allows you to find out...

Oh wait, there is.

[JLOGIC]

hrothgar, on 2014-March-24, 15:13, said:

All you need to know is how many spade honors partner has.
Surely, there must be some bid that allows you to find out...

Oh wait, there is.

I assume you mean 5N as grand slam force? I guess if you have methods over that to stop in 6 opposite say, AKxxx that is ok (and there's probably enough room to do so), and 5N probably should be GSF if 4N is takeout, but I think a lot of really good pairs would not have the methods to find out everything about the spade honors as trivially as you suggest. I don't think I have grand slam force agreements with anyone and I don't recall ever bidding grand slam force, so I would not be shocked if my partners thought 5N was some kind of pick a slam (even though it probably shouldn't be with 4N avail).

[ahydra]

I'll bid 4NT RKC and stop in either 5S, 6S or 7NT depending on the response.

ahydra

[gszes]

One of the most potent slam avenues is via rkc. It seems hugely
reasonable that if 4n I available after 1M opening than it should
remain RKC. We do have an x to essentially show the minors and
I do not feel we need both x and 4n to do nothing more than
differentiate on the size of the minors.

4N RKC for me

[aguahombre]

Heck, after 5NT I don't even have methods to stop in 6 opposite KQJXX. But luckily we haven't gone kicking and screaming into the 21st Century yet; so, 4N is RKC. When we finally go modern, we will be screwed on this one.

[steve2005]

5N?

p ♠ could be headed by QJ and need to play in 5♠

[aguahombre]

steve2005, on 2014-March-24, 20:25, said:

5N? he's playing 4-card majors could be weak 4441 and need to play in 5♠

I think Acolers have to just assume 5 spades in a situation such as this.

[JLOGIC]

steve2005, on 2014-March-24, 20:25, said:

5N?

p ♠ could be headed by QJ and need to play in 5♠

That's very pessimistic, he opened and they bid 4H, they probably have some heart values

[helene_t]

eagles123, on 2014-March-24, 15:00, said:

would 4N really be keycard here? Would've thought it's "pick a minor" (xx x AKJxx AQxxx)

Yes that's standard AFAIK. 4NT followed by 5♠ would be some sort of slam try in spades, though. Not sure what the difference between the direct and the indirect 5♠ is. Of course you can also bid 5♥, whatever that means.

In any case there is no way to ask for aces here.

[Bbradley62]

Maybe the meaning of 4N depends somewhat on whether the hand is given in the Intermediate/Advanced forum or the Expert forum?

[aguahombre]

Bbradley62, on 2014-March-25, 10:19, said:

Maybe the meaning of 4N depends somewhat on whether the hand is given in the Intermediate/Advanced forum or the Expert forum?

The serendipity of variance in agreements between modern experts and stodgy old folks (expert or not) have occasionally swung a match in favor of the underdog.

[neilkaz]

I am happy to be able to bid 4NT as RKCB here and will do so.

[Cyberyeti]

neilkaz, on 2014-March-25, 10:49, said:

I am happy to be able to bid 4NT as RKCB here and will do so.

Ditto, X is T/O orientated for us so 4N asks. Also on the Acol discussion, AFAIK nobody ever opens any 4441 1♠

[ggwhiz]

Is it really common to play 4nt as takeout? If it is please tell me who in case I get to play against them.

Letting the opponents pre-empt you out of the ability to key card feels like leading with your chin. I'll double with those minor suit hands and take a lower penalty once in a blue moon or cue bid and continue if I'm slammish.

[Bbradley62]

aguahombre, on 2014-March-25, 10:31, said:

The serendipity of variance in agreements between modern experts and stodgy old folks (expert or not) have occasionally swung a match in favor of the underdog.

As a stodgy non-expert, it would never have occurred to me at the table that 4N could be anything other than RKC. Maybe someday I'll learn more new-fangled stuff.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I assume you mean 5N as grand slam force? I guess if you have methods over that to stop in 6 opposite say, AKxxx that is ok (and there's probably enough room to do so), and 5N probably should be GSF if 4N is takeout, but I think a lot of really good pairs would not have the methods to find out everything about the spade honors as trivially as you suggest.

This is interesting as there is so much space after 5N that it should be possible to cater for all (or at least most) cases but it's comes up so rarely that it may not be worth thinking about
I don't remember ever using it, last time I discussed it we agreed: 1step = 0 out of 3 top, 2step = 1 out of 3 top etc. but I now see how it backfires with say 5 trump support or even 4 card opposite 6+carder.