[Stephen Tu]

You hold ♠KQJxx♥AJxx♦AQx♣Q

Partner opens 1nt, showing 15-17. What now? If you start with Stayman, partner bids 2♦.

[Scarabin]

For me Stayman followed by 2♠(my stayman is forcing to game). What am I missing?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

If you play Stayman / Smolen, the start of the auction is clear, Stayman, and over 2D, bid 3H.

Assuming you dont play Smolen, replace 3H in the Smolen auction with 3S.

Assuming Opener denied 3 Spades by bidding 3NT, I would end the auction with 6NT, you have at
most 36HCP between you and no fit. If you still want to try chasing the rainbow, you can bid 5NT,
which asks for min / max.

I am pretty sure, that 4D over 3NT would show 64 in the majors and a diamond shortage.

With kind regards
Marlow

[Vampyr]

 Scarabin, on 2014-March-17, 00:30, said:

For me Stayman followed by 2♠(my stayman is forcing to game). What am I missing?

Since most people don't play Stayman even forcing to 2NT, your solution will not be a popular one!

 P_Marlowe, on 2014-March-17, 03:33, said:

I am pretty sure, that 4D over 3NT would show 64 in the majors and a diamond shortage.

I don't have any agreements about this, but I think I am more likely to assume that it is shaping out.

As regards the 5/4, 6/4 issue, there must be some difference between starting with Stayman, and transferring to spades and then bidding hearts. (Maybe a lot of people use this to show 5/5? We use a direct 4♣ for that.)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 Vampyr, on 2014-March-17, 05:23, said:

As regards the 5/4, 6/4 issue, there must be some difference between starting with Stayman, and transferring to spades and then bidding hearts. (Maybe a lot of people use this to show 5/5? We use a direct 4♣ for that.)

One method for the 6s/4h :

1NT - 2C
2D - 3H! ( Smolen, initially showing 5s/4h )
3NT ( 2s/3h ) - 4H! ( transfer to ♠ showing 6s/4h )
4S - 4NT ( RKC ) or 6S
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
EDIT:
I just found this in my notes for the 6/4 cases :

1NT - 2C
2D - ??
....... 4C = Gerber
....... 4D! = transfer showing 4s/6h
....... 4H! = transfer showing 6s/4h
....... 4NT = Quant invite to 6NT

[Cyberyeti]

 P_Marlowe, on 2014-March-17, 03:33, said:

Hi,

If you play Stayman / Smolen, the start of the auction is clear, Stayman, and over 2D, bid 3H.

Assuming you dont play Smolen, replace 3H in the Smolen auction with 3S.

In old fashioned Acol, the non Smolen 3♠ is how you bid an invitational 5-4 as 2♠ is drop dead.

1N-2♥-2♠-3♥ thus is not necessarily 5-5 but is how you'd bid this.

[aguahombre]

I think this time, with this hand, I would be taking a different approach.

--Stayman was fine at first, but the answer eliminated "mirroring" problems and turned this into a trick-counting hand, and I don't think continued effort to uncover a 3-5 Spade fit will be useful.

--It is not a quant, because we could have 36 and be missing a bullet.

Stayman and its answer didn't eliminate our ability to ask for Aces, since we are relics and can jump to 4C after the 2D response. (If Partner had a major, we would have had to confirm the fit before wooding).

Now, if the two aces are accounted for, and even if only 2 of the three kings, I would have 12 tricks counted regardless of which two kings. If the missing King is hearts (worst), we still have better than even money to find a 13th in the play.

Will pay off when Opener as AX KQX JXXX AJXX and the Diamond hook is off..and I forgot to ask for Kings.

[gszes]

Starting with stayman and then showing your 5 card spade suit
at the 3 level will let partner know you have 9 cards in the
majors which is a great start. The problem comes after the
bidding goes something like 1n 2c 2d 3h (smolen) 3n. The only
thing opener is doing right now is denying a major suit fit
and showing they have the minors well covered.

My suggestion here is to bid 4d which in theory shows a
5440 hand with slam interest (p can bid 4n to sign off). If
opener has only the club A (and not the club K or J) they
will not be able to sign off in 4n and a grand slam appears
on the horizon if opener is near max and how opener responds
over 4d will let us know if the grand is biddable.

If opener bids:
4h 3 card support no dia fit and minimum (we bid 6s)
4s no dia fit denies 3 hearts and minimum (we bid 6s)
4n not max clubs well stopped (we bid 6n)
5d dia fit not good enough for 6c (we bid 6s)
5h 3 hearts no dia fit and average (we bid 6s)
5s denies 3 hearts no dia fit and average (we bid 6s)
5n opener has max with clubs well stopped (we bid 6n)
6c dia fit just shy of max (we bid 7n)
6d dia fit and max (we bid 7n)



The above (very natural) system can be applied in a wide
variety of circumstances but it requires responder have a
"anchor" suit that they can fall back to no matter what
response they get from opener and the 5 card spade suit with
at least 3 of the top 4 honors is sufficient for this purpose.

[JLOGIC]

Smolen then 4D over 3N seems normal. If partner bids 4N over that, I would just give up, ofc partner might have something like AKJxx of clubs and the SA and a king and grand is cold but that's too tough for me.

[ggwhiz]

 P_Marlowe, on 2014-March-17, 03:33, said:

Hi,

If you play Stayman / Smolen, the start of the auction is clear, Stayman, and over 2D, bid 3H.

I am pretty sure, that 4D over 3NT would show 64 in the majors and a diamond shortage.

With kind regards
Marlow

I do play smolen here and assuming a spade fit is found (I'm also in for 6nt if not) RKC followed by specific kings.

Assuming partner shows either minor suit king (which I need 1 of to keep the grand hopes alive) the next suit up invites the grand with partner knowing I have this length in hearts.

ie after 5nt - 6♣ (specific king)
6♦ pard has room to show the heart king as well

after 5nt - 6♦ I'll bid 6♥

In either of these when pard has a second king in the suit I bid, they bid 6nt to show it.

In the first (both minor suit kings) I pass 6nt and in the second (both round suit kings) I bid the grand.

Other methods may handle this just as well and if partner happened to respond 2♥ to stayman we jump to 3♠ to show a fit and a slam try or if they bid 2♠ we bid 3♥ to show the same. Gets to the same point a little more directly.

ps. jumping to 4♦ for us is a kind of delayed texas with 4-6 in the majors. You bid 3♠ smolen with the same shape but if pard bids 3nt and you now take it out to 4♥ you have the same 4-6 in the majors but slam interest.

[Stephen Tu]

 JLOGIC, on 2014-March-17, 11:28, said:

Smolen then 4D over 3N seems normal. If partner bids 4N over that, I would just give up, ofc partner might have something like AKJxx of clubs and the SA and a king and grand is cold but that's too tough for me.

Both teams languished in 6nt with 13 cashers (did require 4-2/3-3 spades), just checking if this was fairly normal or not, if there was some way short of full-blown relay system to get to the good ones while staying out of the stupid ones. I was worried that if I did 4d over 3nt I still wouldn't know for sure if we were off a bullet so I gave up.

[JLOGIC]

 Stephen Tu, on 2014-March-17, 14:36, said:

Both teams languished in 6nt with 13 cashers (did require 4-2/3-3 spades), just checking if this was fairly normal or not, if there was some way short of full-blown relay system to get to the good ones while staying out of the stupid ones. I was worried that if I did 4d over 3nt I still wouldn't know for sure if we were off a bullet so I gave up.

There is always a chance partner bids something like 6D over 4D, in which case I would guess you can shoot out a grand (it's hard to imagine what partner has if it's not K fifth of diamonds and A A K + whatever. I constructed Ax KQx Jxxxx AKx but realized that would be 13 in 7N. Maybe Ax KQx Jxxxx AJx? That would be bad but I would guess grand is very good opposite most 6D jumps).

[Stephen Tu]

Something like Ax KQx KJxxx Kxx was my worry.

[gnasher]

If you bid Smolen and then 4♦, won't partner bid 5♣ with ♣A and a hand that's going to bid 6♦? Jumping to 6♦ should deny first-round club control.

[Stephen Tu]

Does 4S accept diamonds and show ace of spades, or is it offering the 5-2 spade fit for game? What if partner cues 5c but we are off the ace of spades instead?

Is partner supposed to assume 5431 or think 5440 and not like the ace of clubs?

I guess the major problem is that Smolen followed by pull 3nt to 4m is just a super uncommon auction, there's no way I would have been able to trust all these inferences without extensive discussion. Perhaps this is for super-expert long term partnerships only.

[mike777]

 Stephen Tu, on 2014-March-17, 16:59, said:

Does 4S accept diamonds and show ace of spades, or is it offering the 5-2 spade fit for game? What if partner cues 5c but we are off the ace of spades instead?

Is partner supposed to assume 5431 or think 5440 and not like the ace of clubs?

I guess the major problem is that Smolen followed by pull 3nt to 4m is just a super uncommon auction, there's no way I would have been able to trust all these inferences without extensive discussion. Perhaps this is for super-expert long term partnerships only.

agree with Justin's auction. I also agree that cuebids above the rkc level are confusing and little discussed in the vast number of partnerships. doubt there is an accepted standard expert agreement with no discussion.

[gnasher]

 Stephen Tu, on 2014-March-17, 16:59, said:

Does 4S accept diamonds and show ace of spades, or is it offering the 5-2 spade fit for game? What if partner cues 5c but we are off the ace of spades instead?

Is partner supposed to assume 5431 or think 5440 and not like the ace of clubs?

I guess the major problem is that Smolen followed by pull 3nt to 4m is just a super uncommon auction, there's no way I would have been able to trust all these inferences without extensive discussion. Perhaps this is for super-expert long term partnerships only.

I think that 4♦ is forcing to 4NT, and 4♠ suggests spades as trumps for slam purposes.

After ...4♦-5♣, if responder is interested in a grand slam he can cue-bid a major-sut ace, so the partnership can identify whether there's an ace missing. However, it's not a likely scenario: try constructing a pair of hands where opener is making a slam-try instead of signing off in 4NT, responder thinks there might be a grand slam on, and the partnership is missing a top spade.

I don't have a solution to the 5431/5440 problem, playing standard methods. I think you assume 5431 because it's rather more common.

With a good partner I'd risk this sort of auction without any specific discussion.

[Stephen Tu]

 gnasher, on 2014-March-17, 17:41, said:

With a good partner I'd risk this sort of auction without any specific discussion.

I'd wager your class of partners is quite a lot higher than mine .

[JLOGIC]

 Stephen Tu, on 2014-March-17, 16:59, said:

Does 4S accept diamonds and show ace of spades, or is it offering the 5-2 spade fit for game? What if partner cues 5c but we are off the ace of spades instead?

Is partner supposed to assume 5431 or think 5440 and not like the ace of clubs?

I guess the major problem is that Smolen followed by pull 3nt to 4m is just a super uncommon auction, there's no way I would have been able to trust all these inferences without extensive discussion. Perhaps this is for super-expert long term partnerships only.

Everyone seems to play differently here, personally I think the 5-2 and 4N ought to be offers, and the 4-3 should not be. I usually play 4H as RKC for diamonds and 5C as a slam try in diamonds but obviously that's not standard.

I have never heard of 4m promising 5440, that sounds bizarre to me, with a slammish 5431 you always want to show your fragment (obviously it will help partner evaluate), and I am 5431 a lot more than 5440. If partner rebids diamonds or something I will assume they're 544 but until then 5431 is assumed imo.

I recently played with Geoff Hampson and he had an interesting method... 4C and 4D are low/high shortness with 6-4. 4H and 4S are low/high fragment. Over those 4N/5m are signoffs, higher are keycard responses for minor. 4S over 4H is a signoff if possible. If you have 6-4 and non slammish just go through delayed texas of course.

[Stephen Tu]

 JLOGIC, on 2014-March-17, 18:18, said:

I recently played with Geoff Hampson and he had an interesting method... 4C and 4D are low/high shortness with 6-4. 4H and 4S are low/high fragment. Over those 4N/5m are signoffs, higher are keycard responses for minor. 4S over 4H is a signoff if possible. If you have 6-4 and non slammish just go through delayed texas of course.

Neat. I guess when you are pro and playing 4-5x a week you can have agreements for all this stuff. When you are amateur and play 3x a month and this auction comes up once a year it's hard to find partner that is willing to fill out system to this much detail. None of my current partners are of the type willing to get this scientific & detailed. Guess any one of these type of things isn't likely to affect our long term average and it's not like our opps bid the grand so it didn't end up mattering too much.