[straube]

I could use some help deciphering these notes. It's for a strong club relay system...


1♣ − 1♦: less than 8 points. The responses from the opener are either natural (jumps show at least 20 points) or artificial : -
....................1♥ : 20+ any except for 20−23 with ♦;
....................1♠: ♠&Another/♣
....................1 NT: 16 − 19 Semi-balanced
....................2♣ : 16−23,♦;
....................2♦ : 16−19,♥;
....................2♥ : 5+♥,4♠;
....................2♠ : 16−19,♠;

In particular I wonder what they are doing after 1C-1D, 1S. The one spade bid must be forcing. Would 1N by responder be semi-automatic? Or would it promise 5-7? If 5-7 would it promise a rebid? If not...and if opener
learned that responder had 5-7, he couldn't make the natural rebids of 2C, 2D, or 2H without fear of responder passing.

Naturally if 1N is 5-7 then 2C (1C-1D, 1S-2C) would be 0-4 pass/correct.

[whereagles]

my 2 cents (didn't think this too deep, though)

1C 1D
1S

...pass = 5+ spades 0-4
...1NT = 0-7 relay. Opener bids nat with spades (2S=6-4) or 2N/3C with clubs min/max. Natural follow-ups, with any sign-off as 0-4.
...2C/D/H = natural 0-4
...2S = 5+ spades 5-7

[Zelandakh]

The 1♠ rebid is limited to 19 so could be passed with a real dog and long spades. Otherwise 1NT is going to be a relay and not relaying will show a suit and is probably natural. Whether such a break would be drop dead or show values I could not say. Essentially this is just Kokish for the spade suit with the second hand type being clubs instead of balanced. It certainly makes no sense to me for 1NT to promise 5-7. Anyway, if I had to guess at reverse engineering this it would be:

1♣ - 1♦; 1♥
==
1♠ = relay
... - 1NT = 20-22 bal
... - 2♣♥♠ = 20-23 nat
... - 2♦ = art GF
... - 2NT = 25-26 bal
others = transfers

1♣ - 1♦; 1♠
==
1NT = relay
... - 2♣ = nat
... - 2♦♥ = ♠ + suit bid
... - 2♠ = ♠ + ♣
others = to play


In any case, I am not sure I am seeing anything here that warrants special attention.

[Kungsgeten]

We play that a 1C-1D; 1S shows most 16--19 unbalanced hands with 4+ spades. Now 1NT is a relay and it doesn't promise any values. I guess they use the same principle for their 1NT relay (not promising values). We play:

1C--1D;
1H = 20+ unbalanced or 23+ balanced (we play 1NT 15--17 and 2NT 21--22)
1S = Unbalanced with 4+ spades, may be canapé
1N = 18--20
2C = 5+ clubs unbal, denies 4 spades
2D = 5+ diamonds unbal, denies 4 spades
2H = 5+ hearts unbal, denies 4 spades
2S = 5 spades and a 5 card minor
2N = 5-5 minors
3X = Long suit, about 9 tricks

1C--1D; 1S---
1NT = relay
...2C = 5+ spades
......2D = Relay, usually shows some values. Opener bids side suit or 2S with 6+ suit.
......2S = Usually 2--3 spades
......2N = Natural max
......3S = Invitational with 3 spades
......Other = Own suit, 0--4 hcp
...2D = 4 spades, 5+ diamonds
...2H = 4 spades, 5+ hearts
...2S = 4 spades, 5+ clubs
2CDH = Own suit, 5--7 hcp
2S = 4 card support, about (3)4--7 hcp
3S = 4 card support, max

1C--1D; 1H---
1S = 0--4 any or GF without 5+ major or 6+ minor
...1N = Artificial game force
.....2C = Waiting with 0--4
.....Other = Natural GF (a relay scheme is probably better)
...2X = Natural
...2N = 23--24
1N = 5+ hearts, GF
2C = 5+ spades, GF
2D = 6+ clubs, GF
2H = 6+ diamonds, GF
2S = 5-5 minors, GF
2N = 5-5 majors, GF

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2014-January-28, 09:32, said:

We play that a 1C-1D; 1S shows most 16--19 unbalanced hands with 4+ spades. Now 1NT is a relay and it doesn't promise any values. I guess they use the same principle for their 1NT relay (not promising values). We play:

1C--1D;
1H = 20+ unbalanced or 23+ balanced (we play 1NT 15--17 and 2NT 21--22)
1S = Unbalanced with 4+ spades, may be canapé
1N = 18--20
2C = 5+ clubs unbal, denies 4 spades
2D = 5+ diamonds unbal, denies 4 spades
2H = 5+ hearts unbal, denies 4 spades
2S = 5 spades and a 5 card minor
2N = 5-5 minors
3X = Long suit, about 9 tricks

1C--1D; 1S---
1NT = relay
...2C = 5+ spades
......2D = Relay, usually shows some values. Opener bids side suit or 2S with 6+ suit.
......2S = Usually 2--3 spades
......2N = Natural max
......3S = Invitational with 3 spades
......Other = Own suit, 0--4 hcp
...2D = 4 spades, 5+ diamonds
...2H = 4 spades, 5+ hearts
...2S = 4 spades, 5+ clubs
2CDH = Own suit, 5--7 hcp
2S = 4 card support, about (3)4--7 hcp
3S = 4 card support, max

1C--1D; 1H---
1S = 0--4 any or GF without 5+ major or 6+ minor
...1N = Artificial game force
.....2C = Waiting with 0--4
.....Other = Natural GF (a relay scheme is probably better)
...2X = Natural
...2N = 23--24
1N = 5+ hearts, GF
2C = 5+ spades, GF
2D = 6+ clubs, GF
2H = 6+ diamonds, GF
2S = 5-5 minors, GF
2N = 5-5 majors, GF

My impression in looking at continuations that use 1C-1D, 1H as 20+ is that 1C-1D, 1S as natural is underutilized and consequently puts pressure on other rebids. For example, TOSR uses a 1S rebid as a hand with a 5-cd minor while this other I posted uses it as most hands with spades as well as hands with clubs. It may be giving you a problem with differentiating 5S/4H from 4S/5H...or I may be misreading your structure.

A possibility is for 1C-1D, 1H to be either 20+ or 16-19 with some other holding...which plans to break relay later. There are threads on this. For example, say 1C-1D, 1H shows 20+ or 16-19 and diamonds...and say your relay structure is something like...

1C-1D, 1H-
.....1S-hands without diamonds
.....1N-other hands without diamonds
.....2C-balanced hands
.....etc-hands with diamonds

then you can relay break after 1C-1D, 1H-1S or 1C-1D, 1H-1N to show your diamonds. If responder gets too high, there is some fit at least.

[straube]

Got a reply to my inquiry...


"I haven't played this system for the last 10 years. With 20+ points,
opener will generally bid 1H (or 2C with D), so 1S is limited (16-19).
Responder should bid 1NT after 1S, and then opener will describe his hand.
2S would be spades and clubs. I don't think we distinguished which one is
longer, but I don't recall.

If opener has S with 16-19, it will go: 1C-1D-2S.

If opener has S with 20+, he'll go through 1C-1D-1H."

[PrecisionL]

I have played a version of Berkowitz-Johnson / Radin-Wei (Kathy) One Club Complete:

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥:

a) Balanced and 20+ hcp, or
b) 4+♥ and one round force, may have a longer minor

1) 1♠ = 4+♠ & 0-7 hcp

2) 1NT = 0-3♠ & 0-4 hcp

3) 2♣ = 5-7 hcp and 0-2♥

4) 2♦= 5-7 & 3♥

5) 2♥ = 3-5 & 4♥

6) 2♠ = 3-5 & 4♥ & Mini-splinter

1♣ - 1♦ - 1♠:

a) 4+♠ and one round force, may have a longer minor

1) 1NT = 0-4 hcp without an Ace
2) 2♣ 5-7 hcp and 0-2♠
3) 2♦ 5-7 hcp and 3♠

Details available by e-mail or http://www.bridgewit...stems/Ultra.pdf

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2014-January-28, 16:06, said:

My impression in looking at continuations that use 1C-1D, 1H as 20+ is that 1C-1D, 1S as natural is underutilized and consequently puts pressure on other rebids. For example, TOSR uses a 1S rebid as a hand with a 5-cd minor while this other I posted uses it as most hands with spades as well as hands with clubs. It may be giving you a problem with differentiating 5S/4H from 4S/5H...or I may be misreading your structure.

A possibility is for 1C-1D, 1H to be either 20+ or 16-19 with some other holding...which plans to break relay later. There are threads on this. For example, say 1C-1D, 1H shows 20+ or 16-19 and diamonds...and say your relay structure is something like...

1C-1D, 1H-
.....1S-hands without diamonds
.....1N-other hands without diamonds
.....2C-balanced hands
.....etc-hands with diamonds

then you can relay break after 1C-1D, 1H-1S or 1C-1D, 1H-1N to show your diamonds. If responder gets too high, there is some fit at least.

In our case 1C--1D; 1S handles all 16--19 unbalanced hands with 4+ spades (except 5 spades and a 5 card minor). It is possible for responder to find out which suit is the longest after 1C--1D; 1S.

1C--1D; 1S--1N;
2C = Any hand with 5+ spades
2D = 4 spades and longer diamonds
2H = 4 spades and longer hearts
2S = 4 spades and longer clubs

1C--1D; 1S--1N; 2C--2D; (2D is a relay)
2H = 5+ spades and 4+ hearts
2S = 6+ spades
2N = Not defined by us
3C = 5(+) spades and 4 clubs
3D = 5(+) spades and 4 diamonds

I think Nyström-Bertheau played 1C--1D; 1H as natural or 20+, but I do not know how they continued after this.

[Zelandakh]

straube, on 2014-January-28, 17:53, said:

Got a reply to my inquiry...

This sounds precisely to be what I had surmised but does not address any of the question marks I still had.

Kungsgeten, on 2014-January-29, 04:26, said:

I think Nyström-Bertheau played 1C--1D; 1H as natural or 20+, but I do not know how they continued after this.

It is a not uncommon method and there are various systems with this or something similar available online. Since straube is well read on these matters I would assume he has already seen this. For the record, Opener's third bid of 2♣ is typically used as an artificial game force, although other structures are perfectly possible (and in some cases probably better).